GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/newest/1y?p=1

Response
200 OK
IP
52.14.240.252
Profiled on
Token
54608e

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 83.49 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.07 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2805 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2968 …}
  +slug: "Is-Proton-Unlimited-Worth-renewing"
  +title: "Is Proton Unlimited Worth renewing?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    As the title says, I have been using Proton Unlimited for almost a year; I mainly use Proton Pass, VPN and mail. Mail and Pass are pretty good. However, proton VPN is hit and miss because of the constant loading, slow and unreliable servers.\n
    \n
    As the saying goes: *don’t put all eggs in the same basket*\n
    \n
    I want opinions from current and previous Proton Unlimited users.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 27
  +favouriteCount: 38
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702244095 {#2249
    date: 2023-12-10 22:34:55.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2969 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2971 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2979 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3008 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3004 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3021 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        For me, no. I used it for several years but their linux support is not good enough for me. The linux vpn client depends on networkmanager, but I use iwd, so I was sol (loading wireguard profiles is not a good enough solution, too much of a hastle). They also don’t support ipv6 for vpn. Their linux email client doesn’t exist, and on android their app depends on google play services and they refuse to put a degoogled version on fdroid or host their own fdroid repo.\n
        \n
        i switched to mullvad for vpn (linux app works great, they have ipv6, and since I don’t use vpn that often I save money on the months I don’t use it) and tuta for email (they have a decent email app on linux and android, works great without google play services and is on fdroid, and their servers use green energy)\n
        \n
        for pass, I’ve used keepass with syncthing and keepassxc on linux and keepassdx on android so proton pass wasn’t a bonus for me anyways
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 8
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701715383 {#2211
        date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@fahad@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2274 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2190 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2265 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2263 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
      -id: 196308
      -bodyTs: "'also':50 'android':66,136,168 'anyway':178 'app':68,97,132 'bonus':175 'client':23,60 'decent':130 'degoogl':80 'depend':24,69 'doesn':61 'email':59,126,131 'energi':152 'enough':17,42 'exist':63 'fdroid':83,88,146 'good':16,41 'googl':71,140 'great':99,138 'green':151 'hastl':48 'host':85 'ipv6':54,102 'iwd':30 'keepass':158 'keepassdx':166 'keepassxc':162 'linux':12,21,58,96,134,164 'load':35 'money':114 'month':117 'much':45 'mullvad':93 'networkmanag':26 'often':111 'pass':154,171 'play':72,141 'profil':37 'proton':170 'put':78 'refus':76 'repo':89 'save':113 'server':149 'servic':73,142 'sever':8 'sinc':104 'sol':34 'solut':43 'support':13,53 'switch':91 'syncth':160 'tuta':124 'use':5,29,108,121,150,157 've':156 'version':81 'vpn':22,56,95,109 'wasn':172 'wireguard':36 'without':139 'work':98,137 'year':9"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2270546"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702943759 {#2270
        date: 2023-12-19 00:55:59.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701715383 {#2266
        date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 196308
    }
  ]
  -id: 19953
  -titleTs: "'proton':2 'renew':5 'unlimit':3 'worth':4"
  -bodyTs: "'almost':12 'basket':57 'constant':39 'current':62 'egg':53 'goe':48 'good':28 'hit':33 'howev':29 'load':40 'mail':22,23 'main':16 'miss':35 'opinion':60 'pass':19,25 'pretti':27 'previous':64 'proton':9,18,30,65 'put':51 'say':4,47 'server':44 'slow':41 'titl':3 'unlimit':10,66 'unreli':43 'use':8,17 'user':67 'vpn':20,31 'want':59 'year':14"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1701776794
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9125383"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701690394 {#2845
    date: 2023-12-04 12:46:34.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2805 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2968 …}
  +slug: "Is-Proton-Unlimited-Worth-renewing"
  +title: "Is Proton Unlimited Worth renewing?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    As the title says, I have been using Proton Unlimited for almost a year; I mainly use Proton Pass, VPN and mail. Mail and Pass are pretty good. However, proton VPN is hit and miss because of the constant loading, slow and unreliable servers.\n
    \n
    As the saying goes: *don’t put all eggs in the same basket*\n
    \n
    I want opinions from current and previous Proton Unlimited users.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 27
  +favouriteCount: 38
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702244095 {#2249
    date: 2023-12-10 22:34:55.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2969 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2971 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2979 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3008 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3004 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3021 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        For me, no. I used it for several years but their linux support is not good enough for me. The linux vpn client depends on networkmanager, but I use iwd, so I was sol (loading wireguard profiles is not a good enough solution, too much of a hastle). They also don’t support ipv6 for vpn. Their linux email client doesn’t exist, and on android their app depends on google play services and they refuse to put a degoogled version on fdroid or host their own fdroid repo.\n
        \n
        i switched to mullvad for vpn (linux app works great, they have ipv6, and since I don’t use vpn that often I save money on the months I don’t use it) and tuta for email (they have a decent email app on linux and android, works great without google play services and is on fdroid, and their servers use green energy)\n
        \n
        for pass, I’ve used keepass with syncthing and keepassxc on linux and keepassdx on android so proton pass wasn’t a bonus for me anyways
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 8
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701715383 {#2211
        date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@fahad@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2274 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2190 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2265 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2263 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
      -id: 196308
      -bodyTs: "'also':50 'android':66,136,168 'anyway':178 'app':68,97,132 'bonus':175 'client':23,60 'decent':130 'degoogl':80 'depend':24,69 'doesn':61 'email':59,126,131 'energi':152 'enough':17,42 'exist':63 'fdroid':83,88,146 'good':16,41 'googl':71,140 'great':99,138 'green':151 'hastl':48 'host':85 'ipv6':54,102 'iwd':30 'keepass':158 'keepassdx':166 'keepassxc':162 'linux':12,21,58,96,134,164 'load':35 'money':114 'month':117 'much':45 'mullvad':93 'networkmanag':26 'often':111 'pass':154,171 'play':72,141 'profil':37 'proton':170 'put':78 'refus':76 'repo':89 'save':113 'server':149 'servic':73,142 'sever':8 'sinc':104 'sol':34 'solut':43 'support':13,53 'switch':91 'syncth':160 'tuta':124 'use':5,29,108,121,150,157 've':156 'version':81 'vpn':22,56,95,109 'wasn':172 'wireguard':36 'without':139 'work':98,137 'year':9"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2270546"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702943759 {#2270
        date: 2023-12-19 00:55:59.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701715383 {#2266
        date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 196308
    }
  ]
  -id: 19953
  -titleTs: "'proton':2 'renew':5 'unlimit':3 'worth':4"
  -bodyTs: "'almost':12 'basket':57 'constant':39 'current':62 'egg':53 'goe':48 'good':28 'hit':33 'howev':29 'load':40 'mail':22,23 'main':16 'miss':35 'opinion':60 'pass':19,25 'pretti':27 'previous':64 'proton':9,18,30,65 'put':51 'say':4,47 'server':44 'slow':41 'titl':3 'unlimit':10,66 'unreli':43 'use':8,17 'user':67 'vpn':20,31 'want':59 'year':14"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1701776794
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9125383"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701690394 {#2845
    date: 2023-12-04 12:46:34.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2805 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2968 …}
  +slug: "Is-Proton-Unlimited-Worth-renewing"
  +title: "Is Proton Unlimited Worth renewing?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    As the title says, I have been using Proton Unlimited for almost a year; I mainly use Proton Pass, VPN and mail. Mail and Pass are pretty good. However, proton VPN is hit and miss because of the constant loading, slow and unreliable servers.\n
    \n
    As the saying goes: *don’t put all eggs in the same basket*\n
    \n
    I want opinions from current and previous Proton Unlimited users.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 27
  +favouriteCount: 38
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702244095 {#2249
    date: 2023-12-10 22:34:55.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2969 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2971 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2979 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3008 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3004 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3021 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        For me, no. I used it for several years but their linux support is not good enough for me. The linux vpn client depends on networkmanager, but I use iwd, so I was sol (loading wireguard profiles is not a good enough solution, too much of a hastle). They also don’t support ipv6 for vpn. Their linux email client doesn’t exist, and on android their app depends on google play services and they refuse to put a degoogled version on fdroid or host their own fdroid repo.\n
        \n
        i switched to mullvad for vpn (linux app works great, they have ipv6, and since I don’t use vpn that often I save money on the months I don’t use it) and tuta for email (they have a decent email app on linux and android, works great without google play services and is on fdroid, and their servers use green energy)\n
        \n
        for pass, I’ve used keepass with syncthing and keepassxc on linux and keepassdx on android so proton pass wasn’t a bonus for me anyways
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 8
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701715383 {#2211
        date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@fahad@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2274 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2190 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2265 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2263 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
      -id: 196308
      -bodyTs: "'also':50 'android':66,136,168 'anyway':178 'app':68,97,132 'bonus':175 'client':23,60 'decent':130 'degoogl':80 'depend':24,69 'doesn':61 'email':59,126,131 'energi':152 'enough':17,42 'exist':63 'fdroid':83,88,146 'good':16,41 'googl':71,140 'great':99,138 'green':151 'hastl':48 'host':85 'ipv6':54,102 'iwd':30 'keepass':158 'keepassdx':166 'keepassxc':162 'linux':12,21,58,96,134,164 'load':35 'money':114 'month':117 'much':45 'mullvad':93 'networkmanag':26 'often':111 'pass':154,171 'play':72,141 'profil':37 'proton':170 'put':78 'refus':76 'repo':89 'save':113 'server':149 'servic':73,142 'sever':8 'sinc':104 'sol':34 'solut':43 'support':13,53 'switch':91 'syncth':160 'tuta':124 'use':5,29,108,121,150,157 've':156 'version':81 'vpn':22,56,95,109 'wasn':172 'wireguard':36 'without':139 'work':98,137 'year':9"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2270546"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702943759 {#2270
        date: 2023-12-19 00:55:59.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701715383 {#2266
        date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 196308
    }
  ]
  -id: 19953
  -titleTs: "'proton':2 'renew':5 'unlimit':3 'worth':4"
  -bodyTs: "'almost':12 'basket':57 'constant':39 'current':62 'egg':53 'goe':48 'good':28 'hit':33 'howev':29 'load':40 'mail':22,23 'main':16 'miss':35 'opinion':60 'pass':19,25 'pretti':27 'previous':64 'proton':9,18,30,65 'put':51 'say':4,47 'server':44 'slow':41 'titl':3 'unlimit':10,66 'unreli':43 'use':8,17 'user':67 'vpn':20,31 'want':59 'year':14"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1701776794
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9125383"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701690394 {#2845
    date: 2023-12-04 12:46:34.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2805 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2968 …}
    +slug: "Is-Proton-Unlimited-Worth-renewing"
    +title: "Is Proton Unlimited Worth renewing?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      As the title says, I have been using Proton Unlimited for almost a year; I mainly use Proton Pass, VPN and mail. Mail and Pass are pretty good. However, proton VPN is hit and miss because of the constant loading, slow and unreliable servers.\n
      \n
      As the saying goes: *don’t put all eggs in the same basket*\n
      \n
      I want opinions from current and previous Proton Unlimited users.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 27
    +favouriteCount: 38
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702244095 {#2249
      date: 2023-12-10 22:34:55.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2969 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2971 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2979 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3008 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3004 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3021 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257}
    ]
    -id: 19953
    -titleTs: "'proton':2 'renew':5 'unlimit':3 'worth':4"
    -bodyTs: "'almost':12 'basket':57 'constant':39 'current':62 'egg':53 'goe':48 'good':28 'hit':33 'howev':29 'load':40 'mail':22,23 'main':16 'miss':35 'opinion':60 'pass':19,25 'pretti':27 'previous':64 'proton':9,18,30,65 'put':51 'say':4,47 'server':44 'slow':41 'titl':3 'unlimit':10,66 'unreli':43 'use':8,17 'user':67 'vpn':20,31 'want':59 'year':14"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701776794
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9125383"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701690394 {#2845
      date: 2023-12-04 12:46:34.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    For me, no. I used it for several years but their linux support is not good enough for me. The linux vpn client depends on networkmanager, but I use iwd, so I was sol (loading wireguard profiles is not a good enough solution, too much of a hastle). They also don’t support ipv6 for vpn. Their linux email client doesn’t exist, and on android their app depends on google play services and they refuse to put a degoogled version on fdroid or host their own fdroid repo.\n
    \n
    i switched to mullvad for vpn (linux app works great, they have ipv6, and since I don’t use vpn that often I save money on the months I don’t use it) and tuta for email (they have a decent email app on linux and android, works great without google play services and is on fdroid, and their servers use green energy)\n
    \n
    for pass, I’ve used keepass with syncthing and keepassxc on linux and keepassdx on android so proton pass wasn’t a bonus for me anyways
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 8
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701715383 {#2211
    date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@fahad@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2274 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2190 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2265 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2263 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
  -id: 196308
  -bodyTs: "'also':50 'android':66,136,168 'anyway':178 'app':68,97,132 'bonus':175 'client':23,60 'decent':130 'degoogl':80 'depend':24,69 'doesn':61 'email':59,126,131 'energi':152 'enough':17,42 'exist':63 'fdroid':83,88,146 'good':16,41 'googl':71,140 'great':99,138 'green':151 'hastl':48 'host':85 'ipv6':54,102 'iwd':30 'keepass':158 'keepassdx':166 'keepassxc':162 'linux':12,21,58,96,134,164 'load':35 'money':114 'month':117 'much':45 'mullvad':93 'networkmanag':26 'often':111 'pass':154,171 'play':72,141 'profil':37 'proton':170 'put':78 'refus':76 'repo':89 'save':113 'server':149 'servic':73,142 'sever':8 'sinc':104 'sol':34 'solut':43 'support':13,53 'switch':91 'syncth':160 'tuta':124 'use':5,29,108,121,150,157 've':156 'version':81 'vpn':22,56,95,109 'wasn':172 'wireguard':36 'without':139 'work':98,137 'year':9"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2270546"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702943759 {#2270
    date: 2023-12-19 00:55:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701715383 {#2266
    date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 196308
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2805 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2968 …}
    +slug: "Is-Proton-Unlimited-Worth-renewing"
    +title: "Is Proton Unlimited Worth renewing?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      As the title says, I have been using Proton Unlimited for almost a year; I mainly use Proton Pass, VPN and mail. Mail and Pass are pretty good. However, proton VPN is hit and miss because of the constant loading, slow and unreliable servers.\n
      \n
      As the saying goes: *don’t put all eggs in the same basket*\n
      \n
      I want opinions from current and previous Proton Unlimited users.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 27
    +favouriteCount: 38
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702244095 {#2249
      date: 2023-12-10 22:34:55.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2969 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2971 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2979 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3008 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3004 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3021 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257}
    ]
    -id: 19953
    -titleTs: "'proton':2 'renew':5 'unlimit':3 'worth':4"
    -bodyTs: "'almost':12 'basket':57 'constant':39 'current':62 'egg':53 'goe':48 'good':28 'hit':33 'howev':29 'load':40 'mail':22,23 'main':16 'miss':35 'opinion':60 'pass':19,25 'pretti':27 'previous':64 'proton':9,18,30,65 'put':51 'say':4,47 'server':44 'slow':41 'titl':3 'unlimit':10,66 'unreli':43 'use':8,17 'user':67 'vpn':20,31 'want':59 'year':14"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701776794
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9125383"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701690394 {#2845
      date: 2023-12-04 12:46:34.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    For me, no. I used it for several years but their linux support is not good enough for me. The linux vpn client depends on networkmanager, but I use iwd, so I was sol (loading wireguard profiles is not a good enough solution, too much of a hastle). They also don’t support ipv6 for vpn. Their linux email client doesn’t exist, and on android their app depends on google play services and they refuse to put a degoogled version on fdroid or host their own fdroid repo.\n
    \n
    i switched to mullvad for vpn (linux app works great, they have ipv6, and since I don’t use vpn that often I save money on the months I don’t use it) and tuta for email (they have a decent email app on linux and android, works great without google play services and is on fdroid, and their servers use green energy)\n
    \n
    for pass, I’ve used keepass with syncthing and keepassxc on linux and keepassdx on android so proton pass wasn’t a bonus for me anyways
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 8
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701715383 {#2211
    date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@fahad@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2274 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2190 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2265 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2263 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
  -id: 196308
  -bodyTs: "'also':50 'android':66,136,168 'anyway':178 'app':68,97,132 'bonus':175 'client':23,60 'decent':130 'degoogl':80 'depend':24,69 'doesn':61 'email':59,126,131 'energi':152 'enough':17,42 'exist':63 'fdroid':83,88,146 'good':16,41 'googl':71,140 'great':99,138 'green':151 'hastl':48 'host':85 'ipv6':54,102 'iwd':30 'keepass':158 'keepassdx':166 'keepassxc':162 'linux':12,21,58,96,134,164 'load':35 'money':114 'month':117 'much':45 'mullvad':93 'networkmanag':26 'often':111 'pass':154,171 'play':72,141 'profil':37 'proton':170 'put':78 'refus':76 'repo':89 'save':113 'server':149 'servic':73,142 'sever':8 'sinc':104 'sol':34 'solut':43 'support':13,53 'switch':91 'syncth':160 'tuta':124 'use':5,29,108,121,150,157 've':156 'version':81 'vpn':22,56,95,109 'wasn':172 'wireguard':36 'without':139 'work':98,137 'year':9"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2270546"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702943759 {#2270
    date: 2023-12-19 00:55:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701715383 {#2266
    date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 196308
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2268
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2805 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2968 …}
    +slug: "Is-Proton-Unlimited-Worth-renewing"
    +title: "Is Proton Unlimited Worth renewing?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      As the title says, I have been using Proton Unlimited for almost a year; I mainly use Proton Pass, VPN and mail. Mail and Pass are pretty good. However, proton VPN is hit and miss because of the constant loading, slow and unreliable servers.\n
      \n
      As the saying goes: *don’t put all eggs in the same basket*\n
      \n
      I want opinions from current and previous Proton Unlimited users.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 27
    +favouriteCount: 38
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702244095 {#2249
      date: 2023-12-10 22:34:55.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2969 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2971 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2979 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3008 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3004 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3021 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2257}
    ]
    -id: 19953
    -titleTs: "'proton':2 'renew':5 'unlimit':3 'worth':4"
    -bodyTs: "'almost':12 'basket':57 'constant':39 'current':62 'egg':53 'goe':48 'good':28 'hit':33 'howev':29 'load':40 'mail':22,23 'main':16 'miss':35 'opinion':60 'pass':19,25 'pretti':27 'previous':64 'proton':9,18,30,65 'put':51 'say':4,47 'server':44 'slow':41 'titl':3 'unlimit':10,66 'unreli':43 'use':8,17 'user':67 'vpn':20,31 'want':59 'year':14"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701776794
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9125383"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701690394 {#2845
      date: 2023-12-04 12:46:34.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2267 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    For me, no. I used it for several years but their linux support is not good enough for me. The linux vpn client depends on networkmanager, but I use iwd, so I was sol (loading wireguard profiles is not a good enough solution, too much of a hastle). They also don’t support ipv6 for vpn. Their linux email client doesn’t exist, and on android their app depends on google play services and they refuse to put a degoogled version on fdroid or host their own fdroid repo.\n
    \n
    i switched to mullvad for vpn (linux app works great, they have ipv6, and since I don’t use vpn that often I save money on the months I don’t use it) and tuta for email (they have a decent email app on linux and android, works great without google play services and is on fdroid, and their servers use green energy)\n
    \n
    for pass, I’ve used keepass with syncthing and keepassxc on linux and keepassdx on android so proton pass wasn’t a bonus for me anyways
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 8
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701715383 {#2211
    date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@fahad@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2274 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2190 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2265 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2263 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
  -id: 196308
  -bodyTs: "'also':50 'android':66,136,168 'anyway':178 'app':68,97,132 'bonus':175 'client':23,60 'decent':130 'degoogl':80 'depend':24,69 'doesn':61 'email':59,126,131 'energi':152 'enough':17,42 'exist':63 'fdroid':83,88,146 'good':16,41 'googl':71,140 'great':99,138 'green':151 'hastl':48 'host':85 'ipv6':54,102 'iwd':30 'keepass':158 'keepassdx':166 'keepassxc':162 'linux':12,21,58,96,134,164 'load':35 'money':114 'month':117 'much':45 'mullvad':93 'networkmanag':26 'often':111 'pass':154,171 'play':72,141 'profil':37 'proton':170 'put':78 'refus':76 'repo':89 'save':113 'server':149 'servic':73,142 'sever':8 'sinc':104 'sol':34 'solut':43 'support':13,53 'switch':91 'syncth':160 'tuta':124 'use':5,29,108,121,150,157 've':156 'version':81 'vpn':22,56,95,109 'wasn':172 'wireguard':36 'without':139 'work':98,137 'year':9"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2270546"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702943759 {#2270
    date: 2023-12-19 00:55:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701715383 {#2266
    date: 2023-12-04 19:43:03.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 196308
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
  +slug: "hypocrite"
  +title: "hypocrite."
  +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 142
  +favouriteCount: 414
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
    date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
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      +body: """
        Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
        \n
        To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
        """
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    22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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      +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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    21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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      +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
        \n
        if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
        \n
        Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
        """
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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    19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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      +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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    18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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      +body: """
        there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
        \n
        but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
        """
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        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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    17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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      +body: """
        sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
        \n
        we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
        """
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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    16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: """
        [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
        \n
        [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
        \n
        [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
        \n
        Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
        \n
        [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
        \n
        [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
        \n
        > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
        \n
        did I miss the source on this?\n
        \n
        Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
        \n
        while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
        """
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      -id: 191021
      -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
        date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 191021
    }
    15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
        \n
        I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -id: 192032
      -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
        date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192032
    }
    14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192048
    }
    13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Then present yours lol\n
        \n
        Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
        date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
        date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192052
    }
    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
        \n
        Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
        \n
        I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192087
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
        \n
        but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
        \n
        While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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      -id: 192099
      -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
        date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
        date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192099
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -id: 192125
      -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192125
    }
    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
      +lang: "en"
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        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      -id: 192130
      -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192130
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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      +body: "We disagree very strongly"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -id: 192163
      -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
        date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192163
    }
    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
        \n
        If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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      -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
        date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
        date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192188
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
      -id: 192259
      -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
      +ranking: 0
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
        date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192259
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
      -id: 192270
      -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
        date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
        date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192270
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
        date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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      -id: 192331
      -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
      +ranking: 0
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
        date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192331
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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      -id: 192374
      -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192374
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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      -id: 192536
      -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192536
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      -id: 192575
      -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
        date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192575
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
        \n
        what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
        """
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -id: 193051
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  ]
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    date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
  }
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    date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
11 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
  +slug: "hypocrite"
  +title: "hypocrite."
  +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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  +type: "image"
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  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
  +children: [
    23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
        \n
        To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
        """
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        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
      -id: 186760
      -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 186760
    }
    22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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    21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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      -id: 189079
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        date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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    20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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      +body: """
        Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
        \n
        if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
        \n
        Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
        """
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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    19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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    18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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      +body: """
        there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
        \n
        but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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    17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
        \n
        we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
        """
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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    16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: """
        [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
        \n
        [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
        \n
        [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
        \n
        Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
        \n
        [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
        \n
        [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
        \n
        > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
        \n
        did I miss the source on this?\n
        \n
        Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
        \n
        while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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    15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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      +body: """
        Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
        \n
        I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
        """
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      +favouriteCount: 0
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
        date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
      }
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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      -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
        date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192032
    }
    14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701609811 {#2024
        date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
      -id: 192048
      -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
        date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192048
    }
    13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Then present yours lol\n
        \n
        Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
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      -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
        date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
        date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192052
    }
    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
        \n
        Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
        \n
        I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192087
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
        \n
        but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
        \n
        While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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      -id: 192099
      -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
        date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192099
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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      -id: 192125
      -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
        date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192125
    }
    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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      -id: 192130
      -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192130
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "We disagree very strongly"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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      -id: 192163
      -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
        date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192163
    }
    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
        \n
        If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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      -id: 192188
      -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
        date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
        date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192188
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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      -id: 192259
      -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
        date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192259
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
        date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
      -id: 192270
      -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
        date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
        date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192270
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
        date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
      -id: 192331
      -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
        date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192331
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
        date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
      -id: 192374
      -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
        date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192374
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
        date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
      -id: 192536
      -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
        date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192536
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
      -id: 192575
      -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
        date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192575
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
        \n
        what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
      -id: 193051
      -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
        date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 193051
    }
  ]
  -id: 18994
  -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
  -bodyTs: null
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  +upVotes: 0
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  +ranking: 1701519802
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
    date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
    date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
  +slug: "hypocrite"
  +title: "hypocrite."
  +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 142
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    date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
  +children: [
    23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
        \n
        To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
      -id: 186760
      -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
        date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 186760
    }
    22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
        date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
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      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
      -id: 186799
      -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
        date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 186799
    }
    21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
        date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
      -id: 189079
      -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
        date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 189079
    }
    20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
        \n
        if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
        \n
        Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
        """
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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    19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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    18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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      +body: """
        there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
        \n
        but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
        """
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    17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
        \n
        we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
        """
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    16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: """
        [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
        \n
        [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
        \n
        [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
        \n
        Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
        \n
        [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
        \n
        [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
        \n
        > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
        \n
        did I miss the source on this?\n
        \n
        Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
        \n
        while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
        """
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    15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
        \n
        I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
        """
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    14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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      +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
        date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192048
    }
    13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Then present yours lol\n
        \n
        Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
        """
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
        date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
        date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192052
    }
    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
        \n
        Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
        \n
        I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192087
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
        \n
        but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
        \n
        While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
        date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192099
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
        date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192125
    }
    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
        date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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      -id: 192130
      -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192130
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "We disagree very strongly"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
        date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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      -id: 192163
      -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192163
    }
    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
        \n
        If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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      -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
        date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
        date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192188
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
        date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
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        "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
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      -id: 192259
      -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192259
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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      -id: 192270
      -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
        date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
        date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 192270
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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        date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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      -id: 192331
      -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
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        date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192331
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
        "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      -id: 192374
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        date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192374
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      -id: 192536
      -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
        date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192536
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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      +isAdult: false
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        "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      -id: 192575
      -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 192575
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
      +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
      +body: """
        are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
        \n
        what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
        """
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      ]
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      -id: 193051
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        date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    }
  ]
  -id: 18994
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  }
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    date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673}
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
    \n
    To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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  -id: 186760
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  +"title": 186760
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673}
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
    \n
    To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
    """
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16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673}
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        -id: 189097
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
    \n
    To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701470926 {#1612
    date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
  -id: 186760
  -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
  +ranking: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
    date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 186760
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
17 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details
18 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
  ]
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  -id: 186799
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    date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 186799
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
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    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2027 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 2
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
    date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1711 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
  -id: 186799
  -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
    date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 186799
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
    +favouriteCount: 414
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701470926 {#1612
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686}
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 2
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    date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1711 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
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  -id: 186799
  -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
    date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 186799
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
22 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +commentCount: 142
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    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1711 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599}
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533285 {#1737
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1715 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
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        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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        +"title": 192536
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
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    date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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  -id: 189079
  -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
  +ranking: 0
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    date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 189079
}
 
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Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599}
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
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        -id: 190700
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        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2249610"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701569972 {#1707
          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190700
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2468 …}
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        -id: 190826
        -bodyTs: "'allow':101 'almost':68 'anoth':83 'anyway':163 'approach':4 'aren':8 'argument':120 'autonomi':87 'back':111 'base':10,33 'be':85 'bodi':54 'bodili':86 'book':20 'born':63 'certain':69 'contract':99 'convers':162 'creativ':133 'defend':106 'defens':104 'defin':127 'definit':134 'differ':23 'discuss':149 'ethic':123 'everi':42 'exampl':29 'feel':16,141 'first':78 'forfeit':90 'framework':124 'get':143 'give':27,71 'go':110 'least':49 'level':97 'like':17,142 'low':96 'one':24,34,59 'other':107 'particular':158 'place':79 're':62 'realli':140 'relev':159 'right':32,51 'rise':72 'self':103 'sentienc':75 'sentient':6,43,84 'sinc':55 'social':98 'sort':94 'strong':39,119 'suffici':132 'term':129 'thing':60 'think':37,115,155 'though':150 'util':136 'utilitarian':113 'valenc':12 'violat':82 'weed':146 'write':18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  -id: 189079
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  +"title": 189079
}
 
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Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599}
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
        -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1908 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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  -id: 189079
  -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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    date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 189079
}
 
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26 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727}
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190700
        -bodyTs: "'also':29 'arbitrari':7,16 'distinct':17 'draw':15 'explain':2 'group':12 'm':25 'point':9 'quoqu':22 'say':27 'tu':21"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
        -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
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        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +"title": 192536
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
    \n
    if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
    \n
    Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  -id: 189097
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  +"title": 189097
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        -id: 192032
        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
    \n
    if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
    \n
    Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
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  -id: 189097
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186799
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727}
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
    \n
    if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
    \n
    Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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  +mentions: [
    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
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  -id: 189097
  -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
    date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
    date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 189097
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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29 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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30 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533285 {#1737
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465}
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
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        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  -id: 190700
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 190700
}
 
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Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465}
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2468 …}
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
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        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  -id: 190700
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  +"title": 190700
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465}
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
        -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
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        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        }
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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  -id: 190700
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 190700
}
 
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34 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
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        -id: 186760
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455}
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
        -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
    \n
    but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
    """
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2468 …}
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  -id: 190826
  -bodyTs: "'allow':101 'almost':68 'anoth':83 'anyway':163 'approach':4 'aren':8 'argument':120 'autonomi':87 'back':111 'base':10,33 'be':85 'bodi':54 'bodili':86 'book':20 'born':63 'certain':69 'contract':99 'convers':162 'creativ':133 'defend':106 'defens':104 'defin':127 'definit':134 'differ':23 'discuss':149 'ethic':123 'everi':42 'exampl':29 'feel':16,141 'first':78 'forfeit':90 'framework':124 'get':143 'give':27,71 'go':110 'least':49 'level':97 'like':17,142 'low':96 'one':24,34,59 'other':107 'particular':158 'place':79 're':62 'realli':140 'relev':159 'right':32,51 'rise':72 'self':103 'sentienc':75 'sentient':6,43,84 'sinc':55 'social':98 'sort':94 'strong':39,119 'suffici':132 'term':129 'thing':60 'think':37,115,155 'though':150 'util':136 'utilitarian':113 'valenc':12 'violat':82 'weed':146 'write':18"
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 190826
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
35 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        -id: 190844
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2023 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609811 {#2024
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
    \n
    but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
36 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        -id: 190844
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
    \n
    but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
    """
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  -id: 190826
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  +"title": 190826
}
 
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38 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186799
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380}
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
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        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
    \n
    we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
    """
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2382 …}
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  -id: 190844
  -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 190844
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2422 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2453 …}
        -id: 190700
        -bodyTs: "'also':29 'arbitrari':7,16 'distinct':17 'draw':15 'explain':2 'group':12 'm':25 'point':9 'quoqu':22 'say':27 'tu':21"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190700
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
    \n
    we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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  -id: 190844
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  +"title": 190844
}
 
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Show voter details
40 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380}
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1908 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +"title": 192575
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +body: """
    sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
    \n
    we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
    """
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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  -id: 190844
  -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
  +ranking: 0
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    date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 190844
}
 
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42 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190700
        -bodyTs: "'also':29 'arbitrari':7,16 'distinct':17 'draw':15 'explain':2 'group':12 'm':25 'point':9 'quoqu':22 'say':27 'tu':21"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701571240 {#2372
          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907}
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
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        -id: 192032
        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609811 {#2024
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1908 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
    \n
    [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
    \n
    [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
    \n
    Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
    \n
    [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
    \n
    [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
    \n
    > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
    \n
    did I miss the source on this?\n
    \n
    Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
    \n
    while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
    """
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  -id: 191021
  -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
    date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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}
 
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43 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701470926 {#1612
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190700
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190826
        -bodyTs: "'allow':101 'almost':68 'anoth':83 'anyway':163 'approach':4 'aren':8 'argument':120 'autonomi':87 'back':111 'base':10,33 'be':85 'bodi':54 'bodili':86 'book':20 'born':63 'certain':69 'contract':99 'convers':162 'creativ':133 'defend':106 'defens':104 'defin':127 'definit':134 'differ':23 'discuss':149 'ethic':123 'everi':42 'exampl':29 'feel':16,141 'first':78 'forfeit':90 'framework':124 'get':143 'give':27,71 'go':110 'least':49 'level':97 'like':17,142 'low':96 'one':24,34,59 'other':107 'particular':158 'place':79 're':62 'realli':140 'relev':159 'right':32,51 'rise':72 'self':103 'sentienc':75 'sentient':6,43,84 'sinc':55 'social':98 'sort':94 'strong':39,119 'suffici':132 'term':129 'thing':60 'think':37,115,155 'though':150 'util':136 'utilitarian':113 'valenc':12 'violat':82 'weed':146 'write':18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
        -bodyTs: "'afford':18 'also':90 'anim':63 'biggest':78 'cost':26 'crop':70 'cropland':57 'cultur':93 'difficult':12 'end':76,84 'ensur':48 'especi':28 'even':42 'factor':7 'factori':85 'failur':32 'farm':86 'feed':59 'first':80 'food':35,38 'go':71 'goe':50 'good':97 'gotten':43 'hasn':40 'human':60 'hungri':51 'hurt':100 'livestock':73 'look':64 'lot':5 'make':10 'monetari':23 'much':67 'nobodi':49 'other':101 'peopl':15 'point':46 'problem':79 'reason':27,98 'reflect':30 'rememb':91 'start':82 'sure':1 'system':36,39 'use':55 'vegan':21 'would':9"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907}
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1908 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
    \n
    [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
    \n
    [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
    \n
    Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
    \n
    [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
    \n
    [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
    \n
    > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
    \n
    did I miss the source on this?\n
    \n
    Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
    \n
    while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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    date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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}
 
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Show voter details
44 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186799
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907}
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254646"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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  +body: """
    [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
    \n
    [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
    \n
    [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
    \n
    Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
    \n
    [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
    \n
    [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
    \n
    > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
    \n
    did I miss the source on this?\n
    \n
    Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
    \n
    while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405}
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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  +body: """
    Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
    \n
    I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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Show voter details
47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405}
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
    \n
    I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
    """
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Show voter details
48 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405}
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
    \n
    I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
    """
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
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  -id: 192032
  -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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  +"title": 192032
}
 
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50 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192032
        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018}
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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  -id: 192048
  -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192048
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1403 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2023 …}
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        -id: 192032
        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018}
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701609811 {#2024
    date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
  }
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  +mentions: [
    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2020 …}
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  -id: 192048
  -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
    date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192048
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
52 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018}
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          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
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  -id: 192048
  -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
  +ranking: 0
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192048
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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53 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
54 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Then present yours lol\n
    \n
    Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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    date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
55 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Then present yours lol\n
    \n
    Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
    """
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Show voter details
56 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190844
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Then present yours lol\n
    \n
    Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
    """
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
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  -id: 192052
  -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
    date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
    date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192052
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
57 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
58 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190844
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192163
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        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
    \n
    Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
    \n
    I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
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  -id: 192087
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192087
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
59 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
    +favouriteCount: 414
    +score: 0
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1403 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2023 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254503"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2077 …}
        -id: 192052
        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
    \n
    Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
    \n
    I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1701610759 {#2063
    date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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  +mentions: [
    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
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  -id: 192087
  -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
    date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192087
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
60 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1711 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
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        -id: 192052
        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
    \n
    Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
    \n
    I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
    """
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
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  -id: 192087
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192087
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
61 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
62 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701610759 {#2063
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
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        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
    \n
    but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
    \n
    While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
    """
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    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +body: """
    Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
    \n
    but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
    \n
    While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
    """
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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    date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
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Show voter details
64 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
    \n
    but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
    \n
    While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
    """
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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  -id: 192099
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    date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
  }
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  +"title": 192099
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
65 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
66 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190844
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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  -id: 192125
  -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192125
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
67 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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  -id: 192125
  -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
    date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192125
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
68 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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  -id: 192125
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  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
    date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192125
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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69 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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70 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
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        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
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  +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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    date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 192130
}
 
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Show voter details
71 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        +"title": 186760
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        -id: 189097
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:34:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 190826
      }
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
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  +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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Show voter details
72 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192125
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
    date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
  -id: 192130
  -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
  +ranking: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
    date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192130
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
73 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
74 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192032
        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192052
        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
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    ]
    -id: 18994
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "We disagree very strongly"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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  -id: 192163
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
    date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192163
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
75 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +commentCount: 142
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1403 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2023 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609811 {#2024
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
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        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2027 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "We disagree very strongly"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
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    date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
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  -id: 192163
  -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
    date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192163
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
76 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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  +body: "We disagree very strongly"
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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  -id: 192163
  -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
    date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192163
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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Show voter details
77 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
78 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701610759 {#2063
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254646"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
    \n
    If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
    """
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    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
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    date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
79 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
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        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
    \n
    If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
    """
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  +isAdult: false
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
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    date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
80 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
        -bodyTs: "'also':29 'arbitrari':7,16 'distinct':17 'draw':15 'explain':2 'group':12 'm':25 'point':9 'quoqu':22 'say':27 'tu':21"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190844
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 191021
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
    \n
    If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
    """
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    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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  -id: 192188
  -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
    date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
    date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192188
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details
81 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
82 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190844
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
    date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
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  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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  -id: 192259
  -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
  +ranking: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
    date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192259
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
83 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
    +favouriteCount: 414
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1403 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2023 …}
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        -id: 192032
        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609811 {#2024
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2020 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2027 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254503"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2077 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
    date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
  }
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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  -id: 192259
  -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
    date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192259
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
84 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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  -id: 192259
  -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
    date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192259
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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Show voter details
85 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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86 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +commentCount: 142
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1715 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
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        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
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    date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
87 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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Show voter details
88 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 191021
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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  -id: 192270
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
    date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
    date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192270
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
89 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
90 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190844
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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  -id: 192331
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  +"title": 192331
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
91 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2027 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
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    date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
  -id: 192331
  -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
  +ranking: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
    date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192331
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
92 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192374
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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  -id: 192331
  -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
    date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192331
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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93 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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94 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254704"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
95 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190700
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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        +"title": 190826
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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96 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        -id: 186799
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 191021
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192099
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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    date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 192374
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
97 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
98 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
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    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190844
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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  -id: 192536
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  +"title": 192536
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
99 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2027 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
    date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
  -id: 192536
  -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
  +ranking: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
    date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192536
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
100 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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    +score: 0
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1722646646 {#3018
      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701471534 {#1559
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701519802
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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  -id: 192536
  -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
    date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192536
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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Show voter details
101 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details
102 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +commentCount: 142
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701533007 {#1628
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1715 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243561"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533285 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
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        -id: 192087
        -bodyTs: "'alex':29 'also':90 'among':109 'arbitrari':10 'base':42,54 'basic':117 'brain':60 'concept':21 'consid':105 'consider':97 'empathi':120 'everyth':4,12 'evid':67 'experi':94,108 'experienc':49 'extrapol':83 'fact':45 'give':71 'know':38 'level':118 'lol':36 'm':48 'mani':111 'meriolog':26 'moment':53 'nervous':62,87 'nihil':27 'oconnor':30 'real':41 'reason':81,113 'right':51 'rise':72 'say':3 'sentienc':39,75 'sentient':91 'similar':86,100 'strong':66 'system':63 'systems/brains':88 'talk':7,15,24 'teach':32 'term':35 'thank':28 'thing':50,70 'think':77 'understand':57 'way':101 'word':19 'worth':96"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701610759 {#2080
          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611156 {#2133
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  -id: 192575
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  +"title": 192575
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
103 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702675091 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:08:05.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 189097
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190700
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:19:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459 …}
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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        +"title": 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611750 {#2141
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254787"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
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      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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Show voter details
104 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 189097
        -bodyTs: "'agre':104 'also':102 'and/or':25 'anthropocentrist':98 'arbitrari':37,96 'aren':111 'base':5 'be':28 'best':121 'case':81 'consid':21 'diet':19 'ethic':7,77 'except':79 'experi':49 'exploit':24 'food':30 'implic':17 'kill':26 'knowledg':124 'look':94 'lose':61 'm':10 'matter':86 'moral':44 'negat':52 'nonsenti':84 'nuanc':63 'plain':59 'plant':110 'pleasure/pain':54 'posit':50 'prove':108 'put':56 're':93 'relev':45,78 'said':118 'see':72 'sentienc':1 'sentient':27,41,68,89,113 'sentientist':12 'sentiocentrist':14 'someon':39 'someth':65 'thing':85 'think':34 'valenc':53 'way':101 'whether':22"
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        -id: 190700
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2455
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 190826
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2380
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        +body: """
          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 190844
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          date: 2023-12-03 03:40:40.0 +01:00
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1907
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
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        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
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        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
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        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2336 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2137 …}
        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254806"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611875 {#2340
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254925"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701613144 {#2045
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614880 {#2123
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701615914 {#2223
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
          \n
          what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
        -id: 193051
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
          date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 193051
      }
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
    date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
  -id: 192575
  -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
    date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 192575
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
105 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
106 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
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        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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        -id: 191021
        -bodyTs: "'/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':214 '/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':54 '/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':19 '/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':129 '/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':5 '/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':121 '/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s':2 '/parents-raise-children-vegans-s':126 '/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':243 '/veganism-environment-veganuar':16 '/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut':51 'access':178 'actual':159 'ag':108 'agre':37,57 'agricultur':113 'also':64 'anim':107,112 'articl':25 'asparagus':62 'be':97 'bottom':14 'buy':27 'carbon':170 'communiti':46 'complet':151 'complex':189 'cool':83 'could':78 'counterpoint':226 'cow':181 'definit':233 'densiti':187 'depend':115 'depth':222 'diet':153 'direct':168 'doesn':90,217 'due':172 'eat':58,86 'editor':10 'emiss':171 'exploit':94,118 'failur':70 'far':161 'food':31,35,73 'footnot':66 'fossil':165 'fuel':166 'garden':47 'global':239 'go':42,219 'goe':105 'good':49,136 'grow':32 'grown':30 'happen':102 'idea':229 'independent.co.uk':15 'individu':156 'inher':92,114 'last':122 'less':59 'limit':174 'link':211 'local':29,177,190 'lol':40 'main':21 'maintain':148 'make':135 'miss':193 'neglig':139 'note':11 'nutrient':186 'nutrit':150 'obvious':138 'one':209 'paragraph':124 'parent':140 'plant':87 'point':137 'possibl':237 'post':134 'problem':76,143 'produc':182 'quinoa':60 'read':8,205,207 'releas':169 'requir':93,160 'round':158 'sbs.com.au':1 'season':175 'see':63 'sentient':96 'solv':81 'sourc':195,201 'step':44 'still':101 'super':220 'system':74 'telegraph.co.uk':125 'theguardian.com':50 'thing':68,84 'tho':110 'thrust':22 'trade':240 'two':123 'unfortun':103 'use':163 'vegan':131,144,152,231 'vegetarian':234 'www.bbc.com':120 'www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619)':119 'www.iamgoingvegan.com':242 'www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)':241 'www.independent.co.uk':18 'www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html)':17 'www.nature.com':213 'www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)':212 'www.sbs.com.au':4 'www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands)':3 'www.telegraph.co.uk':128 'www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/)':127 'www.theguardian.com':53 'www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa)':52 'yeah':55 'year':157"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701575436 {#1874
          date: 2023-12-03 04:50:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 191021
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1405
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2254515"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782538 {#2129
          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
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        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701612530 {#2072
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 192536
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
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          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        -id: 192575
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193}
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
    \n
    what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
    """
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    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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  +"title": 193051
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
107 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
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      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
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        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
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        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1701609251 {#1383
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'almost':1 'alreadi':66 'bad':88 'be':39,54 'bigger':74 'certain':2 'consider':43 'cultur':13,29,45,64 'd':80 'discrimin':69 'dog':16 'especi':61 'fight':17 'find':33 'focus':58 'good':49 'hurt':52 'margin':67 'might':56 'moral':42 'ok':21,35 'part':26 'problem':75 'ran':15 'reason':50 'sentient':38,53 'solv':77 'still':81 'think':8 'understand':84 'worth':41 'would':19,31"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609251 {#1402
          date: 2023-12-03 14:14:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192032
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2027 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
        -id: 192048
        -bodyTs: "'abl':39,64 'actual':114 'align':12 'answer':53 'argu':103 'avocado':92 'better':125 'buy':91 'call':65 'capit':96 'contribut':94 'energi':112 'everyth':55 'food':30 'get':7,32 'goal':10 'grow':25 'hypocrit':79 'impact':45 'import':18 'injustic':67,87 'instead':107 'issu':19 'like':73 'm':22,38,77,121 'massiv':86 'mental':111 'need':60 'one':61 'onlin':106 'peopl':8,75,105 'posit':35 'recogn':14 'see':70,84 'someth':116 'still':90 'tho':126 'time':99 'tri':5 'tv':101 'use':109 'wast':98 'watch':100 'way':82 'work':23,122 'world':119"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192099
        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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        -id: 192125
        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192163
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 192188
        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614659 {#2102
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193}
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
    \n
    what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
    """
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
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    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
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  -id: 193051
  -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
    date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 193051
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
108 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193
  +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3023 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3024 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3033 …}
    +slug: "hypocrite"
    +title: "hypocrite."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dd01b561-9300-418f-bdcd-a87d4cb839ee.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 142
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      date: 2024-08-03 02:57:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3034 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3036 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3038 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3040 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3042 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3044 …}
    +children: [
      23 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1673
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1579 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷\n
          \n
          To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1591 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1558 …}
        -id: 186760
        -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'best':10 'better':25 'care':26 'carnist':1 'eat':34 'fit':7 'googl':42 'housepl':28 'kill':38 'knowledg':13 'level':44 'much':24 'omnivor':2 'plant':14,41 'sentient':17 'shoe':6 'speciesist':3 'still':30,37 'take':23 'trophic':43 'vegan':32 'way':39 'would':22"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236174"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701470926 {#1639
          date: 2023-12-01 23:48:46.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186760
      }
      22 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "I think you’re a troll, ignorant, projecting, or some combo of the above, so I’m going to stop responding to you now. Peace ✌️"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
        -id: 186799
        -bodyTs: "'combo':11 'go':18 'ignor':7 'm':17 'peac':25 'project':8 're':4 'respond':21 'stop':20 'think':2 'troll':6"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2236288"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701471534 {#1689
          date: 2023-12-01 23:58:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 186799
      }
      21 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1599
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
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        -id: 189079
        -bodyTs: "'around':29 'bean':31 'cheapest':27 'consensus':3 'diet':10 'food':22,28 'grain':32 'healthi':13 'human':18 'life':19 'plan':8 'plant':20 'rice':30 'scientif':2 'stage':16 'stapl':21 'vegan':9 'well':7"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2243517"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701533007 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-02 17:03:27.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 189079
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i’m a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don’t think it’s arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don’t see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being\n
          \n
          if you’re looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way\n
          \n
          Also I agree we can’t prove that plants aren’t sentient, that’s why I said “to the best of my knowledge”
          """
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          date: 2023-12-15 22:18:11.0 +01:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "I explained why it’s not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That’s not tu quoque because I’m not saying “you also”"
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        +body: """
          there are other approaches to sentientism that aren’t based on valence. I don’t feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that’s the one thing they’re born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others\n
          \n
          but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there’s a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don’t really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
          """
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          sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can’t afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)\n
          \n
          we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
          """
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        +body: """
          [sbs.com.au/…/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s…](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands) did you read the editors note at the bottom?\n
          \n
          [independent.co.uk/…/veganism-environment-veganuar…](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html) the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-trut…](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa) yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote\n
          \n
          Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn’t inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation\n
          \n
          [www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619) last two paragraphs\n
          \n
          [telegraph.co.uk/…/parents-raise-children-vegans-s…](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/) the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no\n
          \n
          > To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally\n
          \n
          did I miss the source on this?\n
          \n
          Here’s a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked [www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w)\n
          \n
          while this doesn’t go super in depth, it’s a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. [www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/](https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/)
          """
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          Almost certainly we do. But, do you think if there was a culture that ran dog fights, that would be ok just because it’s part of their culture?\n
          \n
          I would not find that ok, because all sentient beings are worth moral consideration, and culture is not a good reason to hurt sentient beings. I might not focus on it especially if that culture was already marginalized and discriminated against and there were bigger problems to solve, but I’d still have the understanding that it’s bad
          """
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2018
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        +body: "I don’t. I try to get people’s goals to align and recognize that these are important issues, and I’m working to grow more of my own food and get in a position where I’m able to have more of an impact, but no I don’t have an answer for everything and I don’t need one to be able call out injustice when I see it. And like most people I’m a hypocrite in some ways, I see these massive injustices and I still buy avocados and contribute to capitalism and waste time watching tv and arguing with people online instead of using that mental energy to actually do something in the world. I’m working on being better tho"
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        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609811 {#2022
          date: 2023-12-03 14:23:31.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192048
      }
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2061
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2079 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Then present yours lol\n
          \n
          Sentientism answers the question of “who/what matters?”, not “what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?”. It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don’t care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who’s included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'agre':47 'although':56 'and/or':69 'answer':6 'bad':65,72 'care':20,34 'definit':66 'ethic':14,28,38 'framework':15,29,39 'includ':51 'job':73 'lol':4 'long':43 'mani':27 'matter':11,23 'moral':54 'much':36 'person':30 'present':2 'question':8 'scope':55 'sentient':5 'think':63 'under':26 'use':18,41 'util':68,76 'utilitarian':60 'weigh':74 'who/what':10,22"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702782846 {#2144
          date: 2023-12-17 04:14:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701609945 {#2075
          date: 2023-12-03 14:25:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192052
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2064
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?\n
          \n
          Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)\n
          \n
          I know sentience is real based on the fact that I’m experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:39:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192087
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2132
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          Tell which thing? I wrote a lot\n
          \n
          but, one thing we could do is divert the massive subsidies and bailouts the US gives to animal agriculture (and a lot of the subsidies to plant ag too! It leads to a tremendous waste, iirc the reason corn syrup is so common is we grow too much corn cause it’s overly subsidized. People need good food, not corn syrup) and spend that on actually feeding those people\n
          \n
          While we’re redirecting funds, the military budget could use some massive cuts that could also be used to provide food, shelter, and healthcare to people
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':73 'ag':35 'agricultur':26 'also':92 'anim':25 'bailout':20 'budget':84 'caus':57 'common':50 'corn':46,56,67 'could':12,85,91 'cut':89 'divert':15 'feed':74 'food':65,97 'fund':81 'give':23 'good':64 'grow':53 'healthcar':100 'iirc':43 'lead':38 'lot':7,29 'massiv':17,88 'militari':83 'much':55 'need':63 'one':9 'over':60 'peopl':62,76,102 'plant':34 'provid':96 're':79 'reason':45 'redirect':80 'shelter':98 'spend':70 'subsid':61 'subsidi':18,32 'syrup':47,68 'tell':1 'thing':3,10 'tremend':41 'us':22 'use':86,94 'wast':42 'wrote':5"
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          date: 2023-12-17 04:08:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611156 {#2131
          date: 2023-12-03 14:45:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192099
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "> Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it’s reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':37 'among':56 'base':1 'basic':64 'brain':7 'consid':52 'consider':44 'empathi':67 'evid':14 'experi':41,55 'extrapol':30 'give':18 'level':65 'mani':58 'nervous':9,34 'reason':28,60 'rise':19 'sentienc':22 'sentient':38 'similar':33,47 'strong':13 'system':10 'systems/brains':35 'thing':17 'think':24 'understand':4 'way':48 'worth':43"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701611750 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-03 14:55:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192125
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2342 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Really? What about bestiality?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701611875 {#2334
          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
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        -id: 192130
        -bodyTs: "'bestial':4 'realli':1"
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          date: 2023-12-03 14:57:55.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192130
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "We disagree very strongly"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701612530 {#2068
          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2074 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
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        -id: 192163
        -bodyTs: "'disagre':2 'strong':4"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:08:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192163
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: """
          I’m not saying it is objective, I’m saying it’s not arbitrary.\n
          \n
          If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn’t any evidence I’m aware of that that’s the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn’t be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what *I* experience, I think it’s reasonable to care about what *things that experience things* experience
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -bodyTs: "'also':32 'arbitrari':14 'awar':45 'build':59 'care':33,83,94 'case':51 'could':26 'couldn':72 'dna':17,52,77 'evid':42 'experi':27,37,87,99,101 'extrapol':78 'instruct':55 'isn':39 'isol':19 'm':2,9,44 'much':81 'object':7 'reason':92 'said':75 'say':4,10 'sentient':61,65 'test':22 'thing':28,97,100 'think':89 'tool':57 'tube':23 'would':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255019"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702784380 {#2057
          date: 2023-12-17 04:39:40.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701613144 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-03 15:19:04.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192188
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2109
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701614659 {#2101
          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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        -id: 192259
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':5,13 'mean':9 'ok':1 'say':12 'taboo':2 'word':4"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255272"
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          date: 2023-12-03 15:44:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192259
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        -id: 192270
        -bodyTs: "'arbitrari':9,18,25 'base':2 'posit':16,23 'see':11 'think':14,21 'use':8 'way':5"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255307"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702786137 {#2119
          date: 2023-12-17 05:08:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701614880 {#2116
          date: 2023-12-03 15:48:00.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192270
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you’re right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there’s no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is)."
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          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
        -id: 192331
        -bodyTs: "'anyon':31,75 'argument':20 'away':34 'care':26,43 'deep':6 'els':76 'enough':7 'experi':30,46,69 'flinch':33 'go':3 'hot':38 'hurt':42 'import':73 'layer':8 'least':48 'littl':50 'next':52 'object':59 'one':16 're':12 'reason':64 'recogn':55 'rest':21 'right':13 'step':53 'stove':39 'subject':17,68,77 'thing':18 'think':10,66 'touch':36 'view':60"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255507"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701615914 {#2227
          date: 2023-12-03 16:05:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192331
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701616736 {#2298
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
        -id: 192374
        -bodyTs: "'accur':18,30 'assum':11 'bit':26 'data':31,36 'even':2 'gather':28 'get':4 'hell':1 'least':23 'littl':25 'mind':15 'otherwis':27 'past':5 'possibl':41 'product':37 'reason':33 'reflect':19 'sens':17 'solips':6 'subject':10 'world':21 'would':38"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2255657"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701616736 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-03 16:18:56.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192374
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "That seems to bother you. Let’s taboo the word. When I say “someone”, “anyone”, “person”, etc, I’m referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I’m saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I’m making?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701619665 {#2308
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
        -id: 192536
        -bodyTs: "'actual':49 'anyon':15 'better':43 'bother':4 'disagre':46 'etc':17 'experi':28 'experienc':30,34 'interpret':38 'let':6 'm':19,41,52 'make':53 'one':31 'person':16 'point':50 'refer':20 'say':13,42 'seem':2 'sentient':23 'someon':14 'subject':26 'taboo':8 'word':10"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256195"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701619665 {#2305
          date: 2023-12-03 17:07:45.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192536
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#257 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1527 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
        +body: "Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we’d be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701620264 {#2280
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
          "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
          "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
          "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2277 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2220 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2222 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2219 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2196 …}
        -id: 192575
        -bodyTs: "'afaik':6 'among':24 'broad':5 'd':13 'human':8 'otherwis':11 'p':22 'p-zombi':21 'philosoph':15 'sentienc':3 'sentient':10 'us':25 'would':19 'zombi':16,23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2256336"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701620264 {#2282
          date: 2023-12-03 17:17:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 192575
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2193}
    ]
    -id: 18994
    -titleTs: "'hypocrit':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701519802
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9005897"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702501199 {#2892
      date: 2023-12-13 21:59:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701433402 {#2799
      date: 2023-12-01 13:23:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1562 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1580 …}
  +body: """
    are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?\n
    \n
    what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1701630139 {#2194
    date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@psy32nd@lemmy.world"
    "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
    "@oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz"
    "@anonymouse@lemmings.world"
    "@LemmysMum@lemmy.world"
    "@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2205 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2210 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2207 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2208 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2204 …}
  -id: 193051
  -bodyTs: "'anim':36 'base':5 'better':41 'differ':28 'done':11 'ethic':3,16,23 'histor':12 'human':31,35,40,45 'is/are':26 'justifi':38 'non':34,44 'non-human':33,43 'peopl':9 'someth':19 'system':17,24 'treat':39 'view':4,18"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz/comment/2258048"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701630139 {#2195
    date: 2023-12-03 20:02:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 193051
}
 
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