GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@kromem@lemmy.world/top?p=2

Response
200 OK
IP
3.148.182.254
Profiled on
Token
584643

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 0.66 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.03 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3602 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
  +slug: "Lighthearted-upbeat-shows-for-adults"
  +title: "Lighthearted, upbeat shows for adults?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Recently I’ve been catching up on tv and some of the more mature/adult shows, which I’ve been…Enjoying? Seems like the wrong word, but they’ve all generally been cynical or dark.\n
    \n
    For reference, I’ve just finished Better Call Saul, which got me to finally get around to finishing Breaking Bad, and I’ve also been doing a rewatch of the anime Monster as it’s been years since I last watched it.\n
    \n
    So basically back to back dark shows.\n
    \n
    I’ve already watched The Good Place, which nails what I’m describing, but it’s a little blunt with the sweetness, while I’ve watched some of Bee and Puppycat which seems like it’s closer to a nice middleground of sweet and real.\n
    \n
    What are some of your go-to shows for this kinda vibe?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 198
  +favouriteCount: 200
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1699537149 {#3637
    date: 2023-11-09 14:39:09.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3642 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3647 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3649 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3651 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3653 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2037
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
      +body: "Such a shame it was cancelled"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1699263764 {#2031
        date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@ALostInquirer@lemm.ee"
        "@goodnessme@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2061 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
      -id: 94721
      -bodyTs: "'cancel':6 'shame':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5105709"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699263764 {#2036
        date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 94721
    }
  ]
  -id: 10061
  -titleTs: "'adult':5 'lightheart':1 'show':3 'upbeat':2"
  -bodyTs: "'alreadi':86 'also':58 'anim':65 'around':50 'back':79,81 'bad':54 'basic':78 'bee':112 'better':41 'blunt':102 'break':53 'call':42 'catch':5 'closer':120 'cynic':32 'dark':34,82 'describ':96 'enjoy':20 'final':48 'finish':40,52 'general':30 'get':49 'go':135 'go-to':134 'good':89 'got':45 'kinda':140 'last':74 'like':22,117 'littl':101 'm':95 'mature/adult':14 'middleground':124 'monster':66 'nail':92 'nice':123 'place':90 'puppycat':114 'real':128 'recent':1 'refer':36 'rewatch':62 'saul':43 'seem':21,116 'show':15,83,137 'sinc':72 'sweet':105,126 'tv':8 've':3,18,28,38,57,85,108 'vibe':141 'watch':75,87,109 'word':25 'wrong':24 'year':71"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1699245735
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/13881406"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699159335 {#3623
    date: 2023-11-05 05:42:15.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3602 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
  +slug: "Lighthearted-upbeat-shows-for-adults"
  +title: "Lighthearted, upbeat shows for adults?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Recently I’ve been catching up on tv and some of the more mature/adult shows, which I’ve been…Enjoying? Seems like the wrong word, but they’ve all generally been cynical or dark.\n
    \n
    For reference, I’ve just finished Better Call Saul, which got me to finally get around to finishing Breaking Bad, and I’ve also been doing a rewatch of the anime Monster as it’s been years since I last watched it.\n
    \n
    So basically back to back dark shows.\n
    \n
    I’ve already watched The Good Place, which nails what I’m describing, but it’s a little blunt with the sweetness, while I’ve watched some of Bee and Puppycat which seems like it’s closer to a nice middleground of sweet and real.\n
    \n
    What are some of your go-to shows for this kinda vibe?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 198
  +favouriteCount: 200
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1699537149 {#3637
    date: 2023-11-09 14:39:09.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3642 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3647 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3649 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3651 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3653 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2037
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
      +body: "Such a shame it was cancelled"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1699263764 {#2031
        date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@ALostInquirer@lemm.ee"
        "@goodnessme@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2061 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
      -id: 94721
      -bodyTs: "'cancel':6 'shame':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5105709"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699263764 {#2036
        date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 94721
    }
  ]
  -id: 10061
  -titleTs: "'adult':5 'lightheart':1 'show':3 'upbeat':2"
  -bodyTs: "'alreadi':86 'also':58 'anim':65 'around':50 'back':79,81 'bad':54 'basic':78 'bee':112 'better':41 'blunt':102 'break':53 'call':42 'catch':5 'closer':120 'cynic':32 'dark':34,82 'describ':96 'enjoy':20 'final':48 'finish':40,52 'general':30 'get':49 'go':135 'go-to':134 'good':89 'got':45 'kinda':140 'last':74 'like':22,117 'littl':101 'm':95 'mature/adult':14 'middleground':124 'monster':66 'nail':92 'nice':123 'place':90 'puppycat':114 'real':128 'recent':1 'refer':36 'rewatch':62 'saul':43 'seem':21,116 'show':15,83,137 'sinc':72 'sweet':105,126 'tv':8 've':3,18,28,38,57,85,108 'vibe':141 'watch':75,87,109 'word':25 'wrong':24 'year':71"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1699245735
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/13881406"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699159335 {#3623
    date: 2023-11-05 05:42:15.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3602 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
  +slug: "Lighthearted-upbeat-shows-for-adults"
  +title: "Lighthearted, upbeat shows for adults?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Recently I’ve been catching up on tv and some of the more mature/adult shows, which I’ve been…Enjoying? Seems like the wrong word, but they’ve all generally been cynical or dark.\n
    \n
    For reference, I’ve just finished Better Call Saul, which got me to finally get around to finishing Breaking Bad, and I’ve also been doing a rewatch of the anime Monster as it’s been years since I last watched it.\n
    \n
    So basically back to back dark shows.\n
    \n
    I’ve already watched The Good Place, which nails what I’m describing, but it’s a little blunt with the sweetness, while I’ve watched some of Bee and Puppycat which seems like it’s closer to a nice middleground of sweet and real.\n
    \n
    What are some of your go-to shows for this kinda vibe?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 198
  +favouriteCount: 200
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1699537149 {#3637
    date: 2023-11-09 14:39:09.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3642 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3647 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3649 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3651 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3653 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2037
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
      +body: "Such a shame it was cancelled"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1699263764 {#2031
        date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@ALostInquirer@lemm.ee"
        "@goodnessme@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2061 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
      -id: 94721
      -bodyTs: "'cancel':6 'shame':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5105709"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699263764 {#2036
        date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 94721
    }
  ]
  -id: 10061
  -titleTs: "'adult':5 'lightheart':1 'show':3 'upbeat':2"
  -bodyTs: "'alreadi':86 'also':58 'anim':65 'around':50 'back':79,81 'bad':54 'basic':78 'bee':112 'better':41 'blunt':102 'break':53 'call':42 'catch':5 'closer':120 'cynic':32 'dark':34,82 'describ':96 'enjoy':20 'final':48 'finish':40,52 'general':30 'get':49 'go':135 'go-to':134 'good':89 'got':45 'kinda':140 'last':74 'like':22,117 'littl':101 'm':95 'mature/adult':14 'middleground':124 'monster':66 'nail':92 'nice':123 'place':90 'puppycat':114 'real':128 'recent':1 'refer':36 'rewatch':62 'saul':43 'seem':21,116 'show':15,83,137 'sinc':72 'sweet':105,126 'tv':8 've':3,18,28,38,57,85,108 'vibe':141 'watch':75,87,109 'word':25 'wrong':24 'year':71"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1699245735
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/13881406"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699159335 {#3623
    date: 2023-11-05 05:42:15.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2037
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3602 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
    +slug: "Lighthearted-upbeat-shows-for-adults"
    +title: "Lighthearted, upbeat shows for adults?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Recently I’ve been catching up on tv and some of the more mature/adult shows, which I’ve been…Enjoying? Seems like the wrong word, but they’ve all generally been cynical or dark.\n
      \n
      For reference, I’ve just finished Better Call Saul, which got me to finally get around to finishing Breaking Bad, and I’ve also been doing a rewatch of the anime Monster as it’s been years since I last watched it.\n
      \n
      So basically back to back dark shows.\n
      \n
      I’ve already watched The Good Place, which nails what I’m describing, but it’s a little blunt with the sweetness, while I’ve watched some of Bee and Puppycat which seems like it’s closer to a nice middleground of sweet and real.\n
      \n
      What are some of your go-to shows for this kinda vibe?
      """
    +type: "article"
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3651 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3653 …}
    +children: [
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    -id: 10061
    -titleTs: "'adult':5 'lightheart':1 'show':3 'upbeat':2"
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    +cross: false
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699159335 {#3623
      date: 2023-11-05 05:42:15.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
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  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2075 …}
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  +body: "Such a shame it was cancelled"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@goodnessme@lemm.ee"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699263764 {#2036
    date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 94721
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2037
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2144
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3602 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
    +slug: "Lighthearted-upbeat-shows-for-adults"
    +title: "Lighthearted, upbeat shows for adults?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Recently I’ve been catching up on tv and some of the more mature/adult shows, which I’ve been…Enjoying? Seems like the wrong word, but they’ve all generally been cynical or dark.\n
      \n
      For reference, I’ve just finished Better Call Saul, which got me to finally get around to finishing Breaking Bad, and I’ve also been doing a rewatch of the anime Monster as it’s been years since I last watched it.\n
      \n
      So basically back to back dark shows.\n
      \n
      I’ve already watched The Good Place, which nails what I’m describing, but it’s a little blunt with the sweetness, while I’ve watched some of Bee and Puppycat which seems like it’s closer to a nice middleground of sweet and real.\n
      \n
      What are some of your go-to shows for this kinda vibe?
      """
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      date: 2023-11-05 05:42:15.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2037
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3602 …}
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
    +slug: "Lighthearted-upbeat-shows-for-adults"
    +title: "Lighthearted, upbeat shows for adults?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Recently I’ve been catching up on tv and some of the more mature/adult shows, which I’ve been…Enjoying? Seems like the wrong word, but they’ve all generally been cynical or dark.\n
      \n
      For reference, I’ve just finished Better Call Saul, which got me to finally get around to finishing Breaking Bad, and I’ve also been doing a rewatch of the anime Monster as it’s been years since I last watched it.\n
      \n
      So basically back to back dark shows.\n
      \n
      I’ve already watched The Good Place, which nails what I’m describing, but it’s a little blunt with the sweetness, while I’ve watched some of Bee and Puppycat which seems like it’s closer to a nice middleground of sweet and real.\n
      \n
      What are some of your go-to shows for this kinda vibe?
      """
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      date: 2023-11-05 05:42:15.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699263764 {#2036
    date: 2023-11-06 10:42:44.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2024
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  +slug: "Where-can-I-NEUTRALLY-keep-up-to-date-about-the"
  +title: "Where can I NEUTRALLY keep up to date about the Palestina/Israel situation?"
  +url: null
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    Looking at the two big news publishers in my country. One isn’t reporting about the current bombings at all, while the other one is phrasing their words mostly anti-Palestinian.\n
    \n
    Is there some neutral coverage I can keep up to? Where do you guys get your info from?
    """
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        The most neutral coverage I’ve seen was from The Intercept.\n
        \n
        It has a fairly anti-establishment bias, but that includes both Hamas, the PA, and the IDF.\n
        \n
        They basically give a crap about civilians, but not about any of the institutional interests causing them to suffer, and spread that evenly across the various players.
        """
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    date: 2023-10-22 17:59:23.0 +02:00
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
11 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2024
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3563 …}
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    Looking at the two big news publishers in my country. One isn’t reporting about the current bombings at all, while the other one is phrasing their words mostly anti-Palestinian.\n
    \n
    Is there some neutral coverage I can keep up to? Where do you guys get your info from?
    """
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        The most neutral coverage I’ve seen was from The Intercept.\n
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        They basically give a crap about civilians, but not about any of the institutional interests causing them to suffer, and spread that evenly across the various players.
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2024
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2022 …}
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  +title: "Where can I NEUTRALLY keep up to date about the Palestina/Israel situation?"
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    Looking at the two big news publishers in my country. One isn’t reporting about the current bombings at all, while the other one is phrasing their words mostly anti-Palestinian.\n
    \n
    Is there some neutral coverage I can keep up to? Where do you guys get your info from?
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        The most neutral coverage I’ve seen was from The Intercept.\n
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        It has a fairly anti-establishment bias, but that includes both Hamas, the PA, and the IDF.\n
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        They basically give a crap about civilians, but not about any of the institutional interests causing them to suffer, and spread that evenly across the various players.
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
13 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
14 DENIED moderate 
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      Looking at the two big news publishers in my country. One isn’t reporting about the current bombings at all, while the other one is phrasing their words mostly anti-Palestinian.\n
      \n
      Is there some neutral coverage I can keep up to? Where do you guys get your info from?
      """
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     …2
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    The most neutral coverage I’ve seen was from The Intercept.\n
    \n
    It has a fairly anti-establishment bias, but that includes both Hamas, the PA, and the IDF.\n
    \n
    They basically give a crap about civilians, but not about any of the institutional interests causing them to suffer, and spread that evenly across the various players.
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
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      Looking at the two big news publishers in my country. One isn’t reporting about the current bombings at all, while the other one is phrasing their words mostly anti-Palestinian.\n
      \n
      Is there some neutral coverage I can keep up to? Where do you guys get your info from?
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     …2
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    The most neutral coverage I’ve seen was from The Intercept.\n
    \n
    It has a fairly anti-establishment bias, but that includes both Hamas, the PA, and the IDF.\n
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    They basically give a crap about civilians, but not about any of the institutional interests causing them to suffer, and spread that evenly across the various players.
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
16 DENIED moderate 
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      Looking at the two big news publishers in my country. One isn’t reporting about the current bombings at all, while the other one is phrasing their words mostly anti-Palestinian.\n
      \n
      Is there some neutral coverage I can keep up to? Where do you guys get your info from?
      """
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     …2
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    The most neutral coverage I’ve seen was from The Intercept.\n
    \n
    It has a fairly anti-establishment bias, but that includes both Hamas, the PA, and the IDF.\n
    \n
    They basically give a crap about civilians, but not about any of the institutional interests causing them to suffer, and spread that evenly across the various players.
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  +"title": 65524
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
17 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
18 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3582 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3622 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3624 …}
  +slug: "Soulmate-Saturday-Morning-Breakfast-Cereal"
  +title: "Soulmate - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal"
  +url: "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1702739004-20231216.png"
  +body: """
    Source: [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Soulmate](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
    \n
    Hover text:\n
    \n
    > **Someday the machine will give you everything you want, and the pretenses will be dropped so rapidly it’ll be heartbreaking.**\n
    \n
    Bonus panel[![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
    \n
    RSS Feed: [www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 24
  +favouriteCount: 437
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702832941 {#3617
    date: 2023-12-17 18:09:01.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3633 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3635 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
      +body: """
        Have you ever used cheat codes in games?\n
        \n
        Sometimes dealing with imperfections and adversity is vastly more enjoyable than getting everything you think you want.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 14
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702810761 {#2216
        date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Crul@lemm.ee"
        "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
      -id: 229137
      -bodyTs: "'advers':14 'cheat':5 'code':6 'deal':10 'enjoy':18 'ever':3 'everyth':21 'game':8 'get':20 'imperfect':12 'sometim':9 'think':23 'use':4 'vast':16 'want':25"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/6093756"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702810761 {#2214
        date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 229137
    }
  ]
  -id: 22630
  -titleTs: "'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'morn':3 'saturday':2 'soulmat':1"
  -bodyTs: "'/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':42 '/comic/soulmate-3)':9 '/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':37 'bonus':33 'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'drop':26 'everyth':18 'feed':39 'give':16 'heartbreak':32 'hover':10 'll':30 'machin':14 'morn':3 'panel':34 'pretens':23 'rapid':28 'rss':38 'saturday':2 'someday':12 'soulmat':6 'sourc':1 'text':11 'want':20 'www.smbc-comics.com':8,36,41 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':40 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':7 'www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':35"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702829267
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/18180109"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702742867 {#3605
    date: 2023-12-16 17:07:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3582 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3622 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3624 …}
  +slug: "Soulmate-Saturday-Morning-Breakfast-Cereal"
  +title: "Soulmate - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal"
  +url: "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1702739004-20231216.png"
  +body: """
    Source: [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Soulmate](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
    \n
    Hover text:\n
    \n
    > **Someday the machine will give you everything you want, and the pretenses will be dropped so rapidly it’ll be heartbreaking.**\n
    \n
    Bonus panel[![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
    \n
    RSS Feed: [www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 24
  +favouriteCount: 437
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702832941 {#3617
    date: 2023-12-17 18:09:01.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3633 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3635 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
      +body: """
        Have you ever used cheat codes in games?\n
        \n
        Sometimes dealing with imperfections and adversity is vastly more enjoyable than getting everything you think you want.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 14
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702810761 {#2216
        date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Crul@lemm.ee"
        "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
      -id: 229137
      -bodyTs: "'advers':14 'cheat':5 'code':6 'deal':10 'enjoy':18 'ever':3 'everyth':21 'game':8 'get':20 'imperfect':12 'sometim':9 'think':23 'use':4 'vast':16 'want':25"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/6093756"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702810761 {#2214
        date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 229137
    }
  ]
  -id: 22630
  -titleTs: "'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'morn':3 'saturday':2 'soulmat':1"
  -bodyTs: "'/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':42 '/comic/soulmate-3)':9 '/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':37 'bonus':33 'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'drop':26 'everyth':18 'feed':39 'give':16 'heartbreak':32 'hover':10 'll':30 'machin':14 'morn':3 'panel':34 'pretens':23 'rapid':28 'rss':38 'saturday':2 'someday':12 'soulmat':6 'sourc':1 'text':11 'want':20 'www.smbc-comics.com':8,36,41 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':40 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':7 'www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':35"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702829267
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/18180109"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702742867 {#3605
    date: 2023-12-16 17:07:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3582 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3622 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3624 …}
  +slug: "Soulmate-Saturday-Morning-Breakfast-Cereal"
  +title: "Soulmate - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal"
  +url: "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1702739004-20231216.png"
  +body: """
    Source: [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Soulmate](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
    \n
    Hover text:\n
    \n
    > **Someday the machine will give you everything you want, and the pretenses will be dropped so rapidly it’ll be heartbreaking.**\n
    \n
    Bonus panel[![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
    \n
    RSS Feed: [www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 24
  +favouriteCount: 437
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702832941 {#3617
    date: 2023-12-17 18:09:01.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3633 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3635 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
      +body: """
        Have you ever used cheat codes in games?\n
        \n
        Sometimes dealing with imperfections and adversity is vastly more enjoyable than getting everything you think you want.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 14
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702810761 {#2216
        date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Crul@lemm.ee"
        "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
      -id: 229137
      -bodyTs: "'advers':14 'cheat':5 'code':6 'deal':10 'enjoy':18 'ever':3 'everyth':21 'game':8 'get':20 'imperfect':12 'sometim':9 'think':23 'use':4 'vast':16 'want':25"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/6093756"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702810761 {#2214
        date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 229137
    }
  ]
  -id: 22630
  -titleTs: "'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'morn':3 'saturday':2 'soulmat':1"
  -bodyTs: "'/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':42 '/comic/soulmate-3)':9 '/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':37 'bonus':33 'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'drop':26 'everyth':18 'feed':39 'give':16 'heartbreak':32 'hover':10 'll':30 'machin':14 'morn':3 'panel':34 'pretens':23 'rapid':28 'rss':38 'saturday':2 'someday':12 'soulmat':6 'sourc':1 'text':11 'want':20 'www.smbc-comics.com':8,36,41 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':40 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':7 'www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':35"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702829267
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/18180109"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702742867 {#3605
    date: 2023-12-16 17:07:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
22 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3582 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3622 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3624 …}
    +slug: "Soulmate-Saturday-Morning-Breakfast-Cereal"
    +title: "Soulmate - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal"
    +url: "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1702739004-20231216.png"
    +body: """
      Source: [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Soulmate](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
      \n
      Hover text:\n
      \n
      > **Someday the machine will give you everything you want, and the pretenses will be dropped so rapidly it’ll be heartbreaking.**\n
      \n
      Bonus panel[![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
      \n
      RSS Feed: [www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 24
    +favouriteCount: 437
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702832941 {#3617
      date: 2023-12-17 18:09:01.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3633 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3635 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213}
    ]
    -id: 22630
    -titleTs: "'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'morn':3 'saturday':2 'soulmat':1"
    -bodyTs: "'/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':42 '/comic/soulmate-3)':9 '/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':37 'bonus':33 'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'drop':26 'everyth':18 'feed':39 'give':16 'heartbreak':32 'hover':10 'll':30 'machin':14 'morn':3 'panel':34 'pretens':23 'rapid':28 'rss':38 'saturday':2 'someday':12 'soulmat':6 'sourc':1 'text':11 'want':20 'www.smbc-comics.com':8,36,41 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':40 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':7 'www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':35"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702829267
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/18180109"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702742867 {#3605
      date: 2023-12-16 17:07:47.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
  +body: """
    Have you ever used cheat codes in games?\n
    \n
    Sometimes dealing with imperfections and adversity is vastly more enjoyable than getting everything you think you want.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
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  +ranking: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702810761 {#2214
    date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 229137
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3582 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3622 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3624 …}
    +slug: "Soulmate-Saturday-Morning-Breakfast-Cereal"
    +title: "Soulmate - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal"
    +url: "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1702739004-20231216.png"
    +body: """
      Source: [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Soulmate](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
      \n
      Hover text:\n
      \n
      > **Someday the machine will give you everything you want, and the pretenses will be dropped so rapidly it’ll be heartbreaking.**\n
      \n
      Bonus panel[![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
      \n
      RSS Feed: [www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)
      """
    +type: "image"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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    -bodyTs: "'/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':42 '/comic/soulmate-3)':9 '/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':37 'bonus':33 'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'drop':26 'everyth':18 'feed':39 'give':16 'heartbreak':32 'hover':10 'll':30 'machin':14 'morn':3 'panel':34 'pretens':23 'rapid':28 'rss':38 'saturday':2 'someday':12 'soulmat':6 'sourc':1 'text':11 'want':20 'www.smbc-comics.com':8,36,41 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':40 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':7 'www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':35"
    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-12-16 17:07:47.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
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  +body: """
    Have you ever used cheat codes in games?\n
    \n
    Sometimes dealing with imperfections and adversity is vastly more enjoyable than getting everything you think you want.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702810761 {#2214
    date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2213
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2225
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3582 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3622 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3624 …}
    +slug: "Soulmate-Saturday-Morning-Breakfast-Cereal"
    +title: "Soulmate - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal"
    +url: "https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1702739004-20231216.png"
    +body: """
      Source: [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Soulmate](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
      \n
      Hover text:\n
      \n
      > **Someday the machine will give you everything you want, and the pretenses will be dropped so rapidly it’ll be heartbreaking.**\n
      \n
      Bonus panel[![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)\n
      \n
      RSS Feed: [www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)
      """
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    -id: 22630
    -titleTs: "'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'morn':3 'saturday':2 'soulmat':1"
    -bodyTs: "'/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':42 '/comic/soulmate-3)':9 '/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':37 'bonus':33 'breakfast':4 'cereal':5 'drop':26 'everyth':18 'feed':39 'give':16 'heartbreak':32 'hover':10 'll':30 'machin':14 'morn':3 'panel':34 'pretens':23 'rapid':28 'rss':38 'saturday':2 'someday':12 'soulmat':6 'sourc':1 'text':11 'want':20 'www.smbc-comics.com':8,36,41 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rss)':40 'www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':7 'www.smbc-comics.com/comics/170273907020231216after.png)](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soulmate-3)':35"
    +cross: false
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    +ranking: 1702829267
    +visibility: "visible             "
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      date: 2023-12-16 17:07:47.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2230 …}
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2231 …}
  +body: """
    Have you ever used cheat codes in games?\n
    \n
    Sometimes dealing with imperfections and adversity is vastly more enjoyable than getting everything you think you want.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
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  +ranking: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702810761 {#2214
    date: 2023-12-17 11:59:21.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 229137
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
25 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
26 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3565 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
  +slug: "How-marketing-companies-use-Active-listening-voice-data-to-target"
  +title: "How marketing companies use "Active listening" voice data to target advertising to the EXACT people businesses are looking for"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    This just blows my mind and makes me feel sick to my stomach that such company’s like CMG Local Solutions do this sort of thing even exist! 🤢🤮\n
    \n
    Note: I did not want to use the ‘URL’ field in this post to add a direct link to this company as they use a pixel tracker (see post title). I don *not* recommend you visit [it](https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening). Instead, I’ll quote them here:\n
    \n
    > **It’s True. Your Devices Are Listening to You.**With Active Listening, CMG can now use voice data to target your advertising to the EXACT people you are looking for.\n
    \n
    > **magine This…**What could it do for your business, if you were able to target potential clients or customers who are using terms like this in their day to day conversations:\n
    \n
    > The car lease ends in a month- we need a plan. We need to get serious about planning for retirement. A mini van would be perfect for us. This AC is on it’s last leg! Do I see mold on the ceiling? We need a better mortgage rate.\n
    \n
    > **Active Listening can make that happen for you!**We know this sounds like something from the future, but we are there! We can customize your campaign to listen for any keywords/targets relevant to your business. Here is how we do it:\n
    \n
    > **Create Personas**We create buyer personas by uploading past client data into the platform.\n
    \n
    > **Identify Keywords**We identify top performing keywords relative to the type of customer you are looking for.\n
    \n
    > **Tracking**We set up tracking via pixel placed on your site, so we can track your ROI in real time.\n
    \n
    > **Listening**Active Listening begins and is analyzed via AI to detect pertinent conversations via smartphones, smart tvs and other devices.\n
    \n
    > **Analysis**As qualified consumers are detected, a 360 analysis via AI on past behaviors of each potential customer occurs.\n
    \n
    > **Create a List**With the audience information gathered, an encrypted evergreen audience list is created.\n
    \n
    > **Re-targeting**We use the list to target your advertising via many different platforms and tactics including:\n
    \n
    - Streaming TV/OTT\n
    - Streaming Audio\n
    - Display Ads\n
    - Paid Social Media\n
    - YouTube\n
    - Mobile Precise\n
    - Google/Bing Search (PPC)\n
    \n
    > **Claim Your Exclusive Territory Before Your Competitor**Our technology provides a process that makes it possible to know exactly when someone is in the market for your services in real-time, giving you a significant advantage over your competitors. Territories are available in 10 or 20 mile radiuses, but customizations can be made for regional, state and national coverage.\n
    \n
    Here’s the best part! 🤥\n
    \n
    > **We know what you are thinking…**Is this legal? YES- it is totally legal for phones and devices to listen to you. That’s because consumers usually give consent when accepting terms and conditions of software updates or app downloads\n
    \n
    Is it just me or does the world feel more and more everyday like a dystopian nightmare, a bad joke, satire? Ahhhh!\n
    \n
    What’s your thoughts on this?
    """
  +type: "article"
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    date: 2023-11-16 06:26:40.0 +01:00
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        This is BS. It’s a 3rd rate marketing group trying to game SEO for lead gen.\n
        \n
        Go ahead and contact them, claiming to be a prospective client with a few hundred (insert niche retail or service here) stores and that you’re interested in their product.\n
        \n
        At best they’ll end up revealing they have a SDK or some crap to do the active listening in your own app if you have one.\n
        \n
        If this were real, more than this company would be doing it, and you’d see actual case studies around it.\n
        \n
        Also, it’s 1000% not legal in half the US states given two party consent wiretapping laws unless the users are agreeing to it in some way, which again brings us back to that at best this is some shoddy SDK (and unlikely even that).\n
        \n
        Edit: Looking at it closer and given the way it isn’t linked at all from elsewhere and is a one off mention of the services, I’m actually wondering if this was an April Fool’s page that they just never took down. It’s pretty funny if that, especially given the ridiculousness of a lot of the buzz word heavy language in the bullet points. Like the idea that they are actively listening to the voice data and then having AI analyze the purchase history of the users to then cross attribute ROI using your “tracking pixel” is hilarious.\n
        \n
        Even just one of those steps is such a pie in the sky claim even for most billion dollar agencies.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-17 12:17:39.0 +01:00
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        "@Denatured@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
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      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700184902 {#2068
        date: 2023-11-17 02:35:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699959742 {#2072
        date: 2023-11-14 12:02:22.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 122841
    }
  ]
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  -bodyTs: "'/cmg-active-listening).':68 '10':408 '20':410 '360':304 'abl':117 'ac':165 'accept':459 'activ':85,185,278 'ad':354 'add':43 'advantag':400 'advertis':96,341 'ahhhh':490 'ai':285,307 'analysi':297,305 'analyz':283 'app':467 'audienc':321,327 'audio':352 'avail':406 'bad':487 'begin':280 'behavior':310 'best':427 'better':182 'blow':3 'busi':113,219 'buyer':230 'campaign':210 'car':137 'ceil':178 'claim':364 'client':121,235 'cmg':19,87 'compani':16,49 'competitor':370,403 'condit':462 'consent':457 'consum':300,454 'convers':135,289 'could':108 'coverag':423 'creat':226,229,316,330 'custom':123,208,252,314,414 'data':92,236 'day':132,134 'detect':287,302 'devic':79,296,446 'differ':344 'direct':45 'display':353 'download':468 'dystopian':484 'encrypt':325 'end':139 'even':27 'evergreen':326 'everyday':481 'exact':99,382 'exclus':366 'exist':28 'feel':9,477 'field':38 'futur':201 'gather':323 'get':150 'give':396,456 'google/bing':361 'happen':190 'identifi':240,243 'includ':348 'inform':322 'instead':69 'joke':488 'keyword':241,246 'keywords/targets':215 'know':194,381,430 'last':170 'leas':138 'leg':171 'legal':437,442 'like':18,128,197,482 'link':46 'list':318,328,337 'listen':81,86,186,212,277,279,448 'll':71 'local':20 'look':103,255 'made':417 'magin':105 'make':7,188,377 'mani':343 'market':388 'media':357 'mile':411 'mind':5 'mini':157 'mobil':359 'mold':175 'month':142 'mortgag':183 'nation':422 'need':144,148,180 'nightmar':485 'note':29 'occur':315 'paid':355 'part':428 'past':234,309 'peopl':100 'perfect':161 'perform':245 'persona':227,231 'pertin':288 'phone':444 'pixel':54,263 'place':264 'plan':146,153 'platform':239,345 'possibl':379 'post':41,57 'potenti':120,313 'ppc':363 'precis':360 'process':375 'provid':373 'qualifi':299 'quot':72 'radius':412 'rate':184 're':332 're-target':331 'real':275,394 'real-tim':393 'recommend':62 'region':419 'relat':247 'relev':216 'retir':155 'roi':273 'satir':489 'search':362 'see':56,174 'serious':151 'servic':391 'set':259 'sick':10 'signific':399 'site':267 'smart':292 'smartphon':291 'social':356 'softwar':464 'solut':21 'someon':384 'someth':198 'sort':24 'sound':196 'state':420 'stomach':13 'stream':349,351 'tactic':347 'target':94,119,333,339 'technolog':372 'term':127,460 'territori':367,404 'thing':26 'think':434 'thought':494 'time':276,395 'titl':58 'top':244 'total':441 'track':257,261,271 'tracker':55 'true':77 'tv/ott':350 'tvs':293 'type':250 'updat':465 'upload':233 'url':37 'us':163 'use':35,52,90,126,335 'usual':455 'van':158 'via':262,284,290,306,342 'visit':64 'voic':91 'want':33 'world':476 'would':159 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com':67 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening).':66 'yes':438 'youtub':358"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700038882
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/14867323"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700174105 {#3547
    date: 2023-11-16 23:35:05.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699952482 {#3524
    date: 2023-11-14 10:01:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3565 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
  +slug: "How-marketing-companies-use-Active-listening-voice-data-to-target"
  +title: "How marketing companies use "Active listening" voice data to target advertising to the EXACT people businesses are looking for"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    This just blows my mind and makes me feel sick to my stomach that such company’s like CMG Local Solutions do this sort of thing even exist! 🤢🤮\n
    \n
    Note: I did not want to use the ‘URL’ field in this post to add a direct link to this company as they use a pixel tracker (see post title). I don *not* recommend you visit [it](https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening). Instead, I’ll quote them here:\n
    \n
    > **It’s True. Your Devices Are Listening to You.**With Active Listening, CMG can now use voice data to target your advertising to the EXACT people you are looking for.\n
    \n
    > **magine This…**What could it do for your business, if you were able to target potential clients or customers who are using terms like this in their day to day conversations:\n
    \n
    > The car lease ends in a month- we need a plan. We need to get serious about planning for retirement. A mini van would be perfect for us. This AC is on it’s last leg! Do I see mold on the ceiling? We need a better mortgage rate.\n
    \n
    > **Active Listening can make that happen for you!**We know this sounds like something from the future, but we are there! We can customize your campaign to listen for any keywords/targets relevant to your business. Here is how we do it:\n
    \n
    > **Create Personas**We create buyer personas by uploading past client data into the platform.\n
    \n
    > **Identify Keywords**We identify top performing keywords relative to the type of customer you are looking for.\n
    \n
    > **Tracking**We set up tracking via pixel placed on your site, so we can track your ROI in real time.\n
    \n
    > **Listening**Active Listening begins and is analyzed via AI to detect pertinent conversations via smartphones, smart tvs and other devices.\n
    \n
    > **Analysis**As qualified consumers are detected, a 360 analysis via AI on past behaviors of each potential customer occurs.\n
    \n
    > **Create a List**With the audience information gathered, an encrypted evergreen audience list is created.\n
    \n
    > **Re-targeting**We use the list to target your advertising via many different platforms and tactics including:\n
    \n
    - Streaming TV/OTT\n
    - Streaming Audio\n
    - Display Ads\n
    - Paid Social Media\n
    - YouTube\n
    - Mobile Precise\n
    - Google/Bing Search (PPC)\n
    \n
    > **Claim Your Exclusive Territory Before Your Competitor**Our technology provides a process that makes it possible to know exactly when someone is in the market for your services in real-time, giving you a significant advantage over your competitors. Territories are available in 10 or 20 mile radiuses, but customizations can be made for regional, state and national coverage.\n
    \n
    Here’s the best part! 🤥\n
    \n
    > **We know what you are thinking…**Is this legal? YES- it is totally legal for phones and devices to listen to you. That’s because consumers usually give consent when accepting terms and conditions of software updates or app downloads\n
    \n
    Is it just me or does the world feel more and more everyday like a dystopian nightmare, a bad joke, satire? Ahhhh!\n
    \n
    What’s your thoughts on this?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 42
  +favouriteCount: 191
  +score: 0
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1700112400 {#3560
    date: 2023-11-16 06:26:40.0 +01:00
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  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3569 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3573 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3575 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3577 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        This is BS. It’s a 3rd rate marketing group trying to game SEO for lead gen.\n
        \n
        Go ahead and contact them, claiming to be a prospective client with a few hundred (insert niche retail or service here) stores and that you’re interested in their product.\n
        \n
        At best they’ll end up revealing they have a SDK or some crap to do the active listening in your own app if you have one.\n
        \n
        If this were real, more than this company would be doing it, and you’d see actual case studies around it.\n
        \n
        Also, it’s 1000% not legal in half the US states given two party consent wiretapping laws unless the users are agreeing to it in some way, which again brings us back to that at best this is some shoddy SDK (and unlikely even that).\n
        \n
        Edit: Looking at it closer and given the way it isn’t linked at all from elsewhere and is a one off mention of the services, I’m actually wondering if this was an April Fool’s page that they just never took down. It’s pretty funny if that, especially given the ridiculousness of a lot of the buzz word heavy language in the bullet points. Like the idea that they are actively listening to the voice data and then having AI analyze the purchase history of the users to then cross attribute ROI using your “tracking pixel” is hilarious.\n
        \n
        Even just one of those steps is such a pie in the sky claim even for most billion dollar agencies.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 87
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700219859 {#2073
        date: 2023-11-17 12:17:39.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Denatured@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2051 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2059 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
      -id: 122841
      -bodyTs: "'1000':99 '3rd':7 'activ':65,214 'actual':91,169 'agenc':261 'agre':117 'ahead':19 'ai':223 'also':96 'analyz':224 'app':70 'april':175 'around':94 'attribut':234 'back':127 'best':49,131 'billion':259 'bring':125 'bs':3 'bullet':206 'buzz':200 'case':92 'claim':23,255 'client':28 'closer':145 'compani':82 'consent':110 'contact':21 'crap':61 'cross':233 'd':89 'data':219 'dollar':260 'edit':141 'elsewher':157 'end':52 'especi':191 'even':139,242,256 'fool':176 'funni':188 'game':13 'gen':17 'given':107,147,192 'go':18 'group':10 'half':103 'heavi':202 'hilari':241 'histori':227 'hundr':32 'idea':210 'insert':33 'interest':44 'isn':151 'languag':203 'law':112 'lead':16 'legal':101 'like':208 'link':153 'listen':66,215 'll':51 'look':142 'lot':197 'm':168 'market':9 'mention':163 'never':182 'nich':34 'one':74,161,244 'page':178 'parti':109 'pie':251 'pixel':239 'point':207 'pretti':187 'product':47 'prospect':27 'purchas':226 'rate':8 're':43 'real':78 'retail':35 'reveal':54 'ridicul':194 'roi':235 'sdk':58,136 'see':90 'seo':14 'servic':37,166 'shoddi':135 'sky':254 'state':106 'step':247 'store':39 'studi':93 'took':183 'track':238 'tri':11 'two':108 'unless':113 'unlik':138 'us':105,126 'use':236 'user':115,230 'voic':218 'way':122,149 'wiretap':111 'wonder':170 'word':201 'would':83"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5303026"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700184902 {#2068
        date: 2023-11-17 02:35:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699959742 {#2072
        date: 2023-11-14 12:02:22.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 122841
    }
  ]
  -id: 12872
  -titleTs: "'activ':5 'advertis':11 'busi':16 'compani':3 'data':8 'exact':14 'listen':6 'look':18 'market':2 'peopl':15 'target':10 'use':4 'voic':7"
  -bodyTs: "'/cmg-active-listening).':68 '10':408 '20':410 '360':304 'abl':117 'ac':165 'accept':459 'activ':85,185,278 'ad':354 'add':43 'advantag':400 'advertis':96,341 'ahhhh':490 'ai':285,307 'analysi':297,305 'analyz':283 'app':467 'audienc':321,327 'audio':352 'avail':406 'bad':487 'begin':280 'behavior':310 'best':427 'better':182 'blow':3 'busi':113,219 'buyer':230 'campaign':210 'car':137 'ceil':178 'claim':364 'client':121,235 'cmg':19,87 'compani':16,49 'competitor':370,403 'condit':462 'consent':457 'consum':300,454 'convers':135,289 'could':108 'coverag':423 'creat':226,229,316,330 'custom':123,208,252,314,414 'data':92,236 'day':132,134 'detect':287,302 'devic':79,296,446 'differ':344 'direct':45 'display':353 'download':468 'dystopian':484 'encrypt':325 'end':139 'even':27 'evergreen':326 'everyday':481 'exact':99,382 'exclus':366 'exist':28 'feel':9,477 'field':38 'futur':201 'gather':323 'get':150 'give':396,456 'google/bing':361 'happen':190 'identifi':240,243 'includ':348 'inform':322 'instead':69 'joke':488 'keyword':241,246 'keywords/targets':215 'know':194,381,430 'last':170 'leas':138 'leg':171 'legal':437,442 'like':18,128,197,482 'link':46 'list':318,328,337 'listen':81,86,186,212,277,279,448 'll':71 'local':20 'look':103,255 'made':417 'magin':105 'make':7,188,377 'mani':343 'market':388 'media':357 'mile':411 'mind':5 'mini':157 'mobil':359 'mold':175 'month':142 'mortgag':183 'nation':422 'need':144,148,180 'nightmar':485 'note':29 'occur':315 'paid':355 'part':428 'past':234,309 'peopl':100 'perfect':161 'perform':245 'persona':227,231 'pertin':288 'phone':444 'pixel':54,263 'place':264 'plan':146,153 'platform':239,345 'possibl':379 'post':41,57 'potenti':120,313 'ppc':363 'precis':360 'process':375 'provid':373 'qualifi':299 'quot':72 'radius':412 'rate':184 're':332 're-target':331 'real':275,394 'real-tim':393 'recommend':62 'region':419 'relat':247 'relev':216 'retir':155 'roi':273 'satir':489 'search':362 'see':56,174 'serious':151 'servic':391 'set':259 'sick':10 'signific':399 'site':267 'smart':292 'smartphon':291 'social':356 'softwar':464 'solut':21 'someon':384 'someth':198 'sort':24 'sound':196 'state':420 'stomach':13 'stream':349,351 'tactic':347 'target':94,119,333,339 'technolog':372 'term':127,460 'territori':367,404 'thing':26 'think':434 'thought':494 'time':276,395 'titl':58 'top':244 'total':441 'track':257,261,271 'tracker':55 'true':77 'tv/ott':350 'tvs':293 'type':250 'updat':465 'upload':233 'url':37 'us':163 'use':35,52,90,126,335 'usual':455 'van':158 'via':262,284,290,306,342 'visit':64 'voic':91 'want':33 'world':476 'would':159 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com':67 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening).':66 'yes':438 'youtub':358"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/14867323"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700174105 {#3547
    date: 2023-11-16 23:35:05.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699952482 {#3524
    date: 2023-11-14 10:01:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3565 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
  +slug: "How-marketing-companies-use-Active-listening-voice-data-to-target"
  +title: "How marketing companies use "Active listening" voice data to target advertising to the EXACT people businesses are looking for"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    This just blows my mind and makes me feel sick to my stomach that such company’s like CMG Local Solutions do this sort of thing even exist! 🤢🤮\n
    \n
    Note: I did not want to use the ‘URL’ field in this post to add a direct link to this company as they use a pixel tracker (see post title). I don *not* recommend you visit [it](https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening). Instead, I’ll quote them here:\n
    \n
    > **It’s True. Your Devices Are Listening to You.**With Active Listening, CMG can now use voice data to target your advertising to the EXACT people you are looking for.\n
    \n
    > **magine This…**What could it do for your business, if you were able to target potential clients or customers who are using terms like this in their day to day conversations:\n
    \n
    > The car lease ends in a month- we need a plan. We need to get serious about planning for retirement. A mini van would be perfect for us. This AC is on it’s last leg! Do I see mold on the ceiling? We need a better mortgage rate.\n
    \n
    > **Active Listening can make that happen for you!**We know this sounds like something from the future, but we are there! We can customize your campaign to listen for any keywords/targets relevant to your business. Here is how we do it:\n
    \n
    > **Create Personas**We create buyer personas by uploading past client data into the platform.\n
    \n
    > **Identify Keywords**We identify top performing keywords relative to the type of customer you are looking for.\n
    \n
    > **Tracking**We set up tracking via pixel placed on your site, so we can track your ROI in real time.\n
    \n
    > **Listening**Active Listening begins and is analyzed via AI to detect pertinent conversations via smartphones, smart tvs and other devices.\n
    \n
    > **Analysis**As qualified consumers are detected, a 360 analysis via AI on past behaviors of each potential customer occurs.\n
    \n
    > **Create a List**With the audience information gathered, an encrypted evergreen audience list is created.\n
    \n
    > **Re-targeting**We use the list to target your advertising via many different platforms and tactics including:\n
    \n
    - Streaming TV/OTT\n
    - Streaming Audio\n
    - Display Ads\n
    - Paid Social Media\n
    - YouTube\n
    - Mobile Precise\n
    - Google/Bing Search (PPC)\n
    \n
    > **Claim Your Exclusive Territory Before Your Competitor**Our technology provides a process that makes it possible to know exactly when someone is in the market for your services in real-time, giving you a significant advantage over your competitors. Territories are available in 10 or 20 mile radiuses, but customizations can be made for regional, state and national coverage.\n
    \n
    Here’s the best part! 🤥\n
    \n
    > **We know what you are thinking…**Is this legal? YES- it is totally legal for phones and devices to listen to you. That’s because consumers usually give consent when accepting terms and conditions of software updates or app downloads\n
    \n
    Is it just me or does the world feel more and more everyday like a dystopian nightmare, a bad joke, satire? Ahhhh!\n
    \n
    What’s your thoughts on this?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 42
  +favouriteCount: 191
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700112400 {#3560
    date: 2023-11-16 06:26:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3567 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3569 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3571 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3573 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3575 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3577 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        This is BS. It’s a 3rd rate marketing group trying to game SEO for lead gen.\n
        \n
        Go ahead and contact them, claiming to be a prospective client with a few hundred (insert niche retail or service here) stores and that you’re interested in their product.\n
        \n
        At best they’ll end up revealing they have a SDK or some crap to do the active listening in your own app if you have one.\n
        \n
        If this were real, more than this company would be doing it, and you’d see actual case studies around it.\n
        \n
        Also, it’s 1000% not legal in half the US states given two party consent wiretapping laws unless the users are agreeing to it in some way, which again brings us back to that at best this is some shoddy SDK (and unlikely even that).\n
        \n
        Edit: Looking at it closer and given the way it isn’t linked at all from elsewhere and is a one off mention of the services, I’m actually wondering if this was an April Fool’s page that they just never took down. It’s pretty funny if that, especially given the ridiculousness of a lot of the buzz word heavy language in the bullet points. Like the idea that they are actively listening to the voice data and then having AI analyze the purchase history of the users to then cross attribute ROI using your “tracking pixel” is hilarious.\n
        \n
        Even just one of those steps is such a pie in the sky claim even for most billion dollar agencies.
        """
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    date: 2023-11-14 10:01:22.0 +01:00
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3565 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
    +slug: "How-marketing-companies-use-Active-listening-voice-data-to-target"
    +title: "How marketing companies use "Active listening" voice data to target advertising to the EXACT people businesses are looking for"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      This just blows my mind and makes me feel sick to my stomach that such company’s like CMG Local Solutions do this sort of thing even exist! 🤢🤮\n
      \n
      Note: I did not want to use the ‘URL’ field in this post to add a direct link to this company as they use a pixel tracker (see post title). I don *not* recommend you visit [it](https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening). Instead, I’ll quote them here:\n
      \n
      > **It’s True. Your Devices Are Listening to You.**With Active Listening, CMG can now use voice data to target your advertising to the EXACT people you are looking for.\n
      \n
      > **magine This…**What could it do for your business, if you were able to target potential clients or customers who are using terms like this in their day to day conversations:\n
      \n
      > The car lease ends in a month- we need a plan. We need to get serious about planning for retirement. A mini van would be perfect for us. This AC is on it’s last leg! Do I see mold on the ceiling? We need a better mortgage rate.\n
      \n
      > **Active Listening can make that happen for you!**We know this sounds like something from the future, but we are there! We can customize your campaign to listen for any keywords/targets relevant to your business. Here is how we do it:\n
      \n
      > **Create Personas**We create buyer personas by uploading past client data into the platform.\n
      \n
      > **Identify Keywords**We identify top performing keywords relative to the type of customer you are looking for.\n
      \n
      > **Tracking**We set up tracking via pixel placed on your site, so we can track your ROI in real time.\n
      \n
      > **Listening**Active Listening begins and is analyzed via AI to detect pertinent conversations via smartphones, smart tvs and other devices.\n
      \n
      > **Analysis**As qualified consumers are detected, a 360 analysis via AI on past behaviors of each potential customer occurs.\n
      \n
      > **Create a List**With the audience information gathered, an encrypted evergreen audience list is created.\n
      \n
      > **Re-targeting**We use the list to target your advertising via many different platforms and tactics including:\n
      \n
      - Streaming TV/OTT\n
      - Streaming Audio\n
      - Display Ads\n
      - Paid Social Media\n
      - YouTube\n
      - Mobile Precise\n
      - Google/Bing Search (PPC)\n
      \n
      > **Claim Your Exclusive Territory Before Your Competitor**Our technology provides a process that makes it possible to know exactly when someone is in the market for your services in real-time, giving you a significant advantage over your competitors. Territories are available in 10 or 20 mile radiuses, but customizations can be made for regional, state and national coverage.\n
      \n
      Here’s the best part! 🤥\n
      \n
      > **We know what you are thinking…**Is this legal? YES- it is totally legal for phones and devices to listen to you. That’s because consumers usually give consent when accepting terms and conditions of software updates or app downloads\n
      \n
      Is it just me or does the world feel more and more everyday like a dystopian nightmare, a bad joke, satire? Ahhhh!\n
      \n
      What’s your thoughts on this?
      """
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      date: 2023-11-16 23:35:05.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    This is BS. It’s a 3rd rate marketing group trying to game SEO for lead gen.\n
    \n
    Go ahead and contact them, claiming to be a prospective client with a few hundred (insert niche retail or service here) stores and that you’re interested in their product.\n
    \n
    At best they’ll end up revealing they have a SDK or some crap to do the active listening in your own app if you have one.\n
    \n
    If this were real, more than this company would be doing it, and you’d see actual case studies around it.\n
    \n
    Also, it’s 1000% not legal in half the US states given two party consent wiretapping laws unless the users are agreeing to it in some way, which again brings us back to that at best this is some shoddy SDK (and unlikely even that).\n
    \n
    Edit: Looking at it closer and given the way it isn’t linked at all from elsewhere and is a one off mention of the services, I’m actually wondering if this was an April Fool’s page that they just never took down. It’s pretty funny if that, especially given the ridiculousness of a lot of the buzz word heavy language in the bullet points. Like the idea that they are actively listening to the voice data and then having AI analyze the purchase history of the users to then cross attribute ROI using your “tracking pixel” is hilarious.\n
    \n
    Even just one of those steps is such a pie in the sky claim even for most billion dollar agencies.
    """
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    date: 2023-11-17 12:17:39.0 +01:00
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3565 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
    +slug: "How-marketing-companies-use-Active-listening-voice-data-to-target"
    +title: "How marketing companies use "Active listening" voice data to target advertising to the EXACT people businesses are looking for"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      This just blows my mind and makes me feel sick to my stomach that such company’s like CMG Local Solutions do this sort of thing even exist! 🤢🤮\n
      \n
      Note: I did not want to use the ‘URL’ field in this post to add a direct link to this company as they use a pixel tracker (see post title). I don *not* recommend you visit [it](https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening). Instead, I’ll quote them here:\n
      \n
      > **It’s True. Your Devices Are Listening to You.**With Active Listening, CMG can now use voice data to target your advertising to the EXACT people you are looking for.\n
      \n
      > **magine This…**What could it do for your business, if you were able to target potential clients or customers who are using terms like this in their day to day conversations:\n
      \n
      > The car lease ends in a month- we need a plan. We need to get serious about planning for retirement. A mini van would be perfect for us. This AC is on it’s last leg! Do I see mold on the ceiling? We need a better mortgage rate.\n
      \n
      > **Active Listening can make that happen for you!**We know this sounds like something from the future, but we are there! We can customize your campaign to listen for any keywords/targets relevant to your business. Here is how we do it:\n
      \n
      > **Create Personas**We create buyer personas by uploading past client data into the platform.\n
      \n
      > **Identify Keywords**We identify top performing keywords relative to the type of customer you are looking for.\n
      \n
      > **Tracking**We set up tracking via pixel placed on your site, so we can track your ROI in real time.\n
      \n
      > **Listening**Active Listening begins and is analyzed via AI to detect pertinent conversations via smartphones, smart tvs and other devices.\n
      \n
      > **Analysis**As qualified consumers are detected, a 360 analysis via AI on past behaviors of each potential customer occurs.\n
      \n
      > **Create a List**With the audience information gathered, an encrypted evergreen audience list is created.\n
      \n
      > **Re-targeting**We use the list to target your advertising via many different platforms and tactics including:\n
      \n
      - Streaming TV/OTT\n
      - Streaming Audio\n
      - Display Ads\n
      - Paid Social Media\n
      - YouTube\n
      - Mobile Precise\n
      - Google/Bing Search (PPC)\n
      \n
      > **Claim Your Exclusive Territory Before Your Competitor**Our technology provides a process that makes it possible to know exactly when someone is in the market for your services in real-time, giving you a significant advantage over your competitors. Territories are available in 10 or 20 mile radiuses, but customizations can be made for regional, state and national coverage.\n
      \n
      Here’s the best part! 🤥\n
      \n
      > **We know what you are thinking…**Is this legal? YES- it is totally legal for phones and devices to listen to you. That’s because consumers usually give consent when accepting terms and conditions of software updates or app downloads\n
      \n
      Is it just me or does the world feel more and more everyday like a dystopian nightmare, a bad joke, satire? Ahhhh!\n
      \n
      What’s your thoughts on this?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 42
    +favouriteCount: 191
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1700112400 {#3560
      date: 2023-11-16 06:26:40.0 +01:00
    }
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3567 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3569 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3571 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3573 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3575 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3577 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069}
    ]
    -id: 12872
    -titleTs: "'activ':5 'advertis':11 'busi':16 'compani':3 'data':8 'exact':14 'listen':6 'look':18 'market':2 'peopl':15 'target':10 'use':4 'voic':7"
    -bodyTs: "'/cmg-active-listening).':68 '10':408 '20':410 '360':304 'abl':117 'ac':165 'accept':459 'activ':85,185,278 'ad':354 'add':43 'advantag':400 'advertis':96,341 'ahhhh':490 'ai':285,307 'analysi':297,305 'analyz':283 'app':467 'audienc':321,327 'audio':352 'avail':406 'bad':487 'begin':280 'behavior':310 'best':427 'better':182 'blow':3 'busi':113,219 'buyer':230 'campaign':210 'car':137 'ceil':178 'claim':364 'client':121,235 'cmg':19,87 'compani':16,49 'competitor':370,403 'condit':462 'consent':457 'consum':300,454 'convers':135,289 'could':108 'coverag':423 'creat':226,229,316,330 'custom':123,208,252,314,414 'data':92,236 'day':132,134 'detect':287,302 'devic':79,296,446 'differ':344 'direct':45 'display':353 'download':468 'dystopian':484 'encrypt':325 'end':139 'even':27 'evergreen':326 'everyday':481 'exact':99,382 'exclus':366 'exist':28 'feel':9,477 'field':38 'futur':201 'gather':323 'get':150 'give':396,456 'google/bing':361 'happen':190 'identifi':240,243 'includ':348 'inform':322 'instead':69 'joke':488 'keyword':241,246 'keywords/targets':215 'know':194,381,430 'last':170 'leas':138 'leg':171 'legal':437,442 'like':18,128,197,482 'link':46 'list':318,328,337 'listen':81,86,186,212,277,279,448 'll':71 'local':20 'look':103,255 'made':417 'magin':105 'make':7,188,377 'mani':343 'market':388 'media':357 'mile':411 'mind':5 'mini':157 'mobil':359 'mold':175 'month':142 'mortgag':183 'nation':422 'need':144,148,180 'nightmar':485 'note':29 'occur':315 'paid':355 'part':428 'past':234,309 'peopl':100 'perfect':161 'perform':245 'persona':227,231 'pertin':288 'phone':444 'pixel':54,263 'place':264 'plan':146,153 'platform':239,345 'possibl':379 'post':41,57 'potenti':120,313 'ppc':363 'precis':360 'process':375 'provid':373 'qualifi':299 'quot':72 'radius':412 'rate':184 're':332 're-target':331 'real':275,394 'real-tim':393 'recommend':62 'region':419 'relat':247 'relev':216 'retir':155 'roi':273 'satir':489 'search':362 'see':56,174 'serious':151 'servic':391 'set':259 'sick':10 'signific':399 'site':267 'smart':292 'smartphon':291 'social':356 'softwar':464 'solut':21 'someon':384 'someth':198 'sort':24 'sound':196 'state':420 'stomach':13 'stream':349,351 'tactic':347 'target':94,119,333,339 'technolog':372 'term':127,460 'territori':367,404 'thing':26 'think':434 'thought':494 'time':276,395 'titl':58 'top':244 'total':441 'track':257,261,271 'tracker':55 'true':77 'tv/ott':350 'tvs':293 'type':250 'updat':465 'upload':233 'url':37 'us':163 'use':35,52,90,126,335 'usual':455 'van':158 'via':262,284,290,306,342 'visit':64 'voic':91 'want':33 'world':476 'would':159 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com':67 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening).':66 'yes':438 'youtub':358"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700038882
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/14867323"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700174105 {#3547
      date: 2023-11-16 23:35:05.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699952482 {#3524
      date: 2023-11-14 10:01:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    This is BS. It’s a 3rd rate marketing group trying to game SEO for lead gen.\n
    \n
    Go ahead and contact them, claiming to be a prospective client with a few hundred (insert niche retail or service here) stores and that you’re interested in their product.\n
    \n
    At best they’ll end up revealing they have a SDK or some crap to do the active listening in your own app if you have one.\n
    \n
    If this were real, more than this company would be doing it, and you’d see actual case studies around it.\n
    \n
    Also, it’s 1000% not legal in half the US states given two party consent wiretapping laws unless the users are agreeing to it in some way, which again brings us back to that at best this is some shoddy SDK (and unlikely even that).\n
    \n
    Edit: Looking at it closer and given the way it isn’t linked at all from elsewhere and is a one off mention of the services, I’m actually wondering if this was an April Fool’s page that they just never took down. It’s pretty funny if that, especially given the ridiculousness of a lot of the buzz word heavy language in the bullet points. Like the idea that they are actively listening to the voice data and then having AI analyze the purchase history of the users to then cross attribute ROI using your “tracking pixel” is hilarious.\n
    \n
    Even just one of those steps is such a pie in the sky claim even for most billion dollar agencies.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 87
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700219859 {#2073
    date: 2023-11-17 12:17:39.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Denatured@lemm.ee"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2051 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2059 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
  -id: 122841
  -bodyTs: "'1000':99 '3rd':7 'activ':65,214 'actual':91,169 'agenc':261 'agre':117 'ahead':19 'ai':223 'also':96 'analyz':224 'app':70 'april':175 'around':94 'attribut':234 'back':127 'best':49,131 'billion':259 'bring':125 'bs':3 'bullet':206 'buzz':200 'case':92 'claim':23,255 'client':28 'closer':145 'compani':82 'consent':110 'contact':21 'crap':61 'cross':233 'd':89 'data':219 'dollar':260 'edit':141 'elsewher':157 'end':52 'especi':191 'even':139,242,256 'fool':176 'funni':188 'game':13 'gen':17 'given':107,147,192 'go':18 'group':10 'half':103 'heavi':202 'hilari':241 'histori':227 'hundr':32 'idea':210 'insert':33 'interest':44 'isn':151 'languag':203 'law':112 'lead':16 'legal':101 'like':208 'link':153 'listen':66,215 'll':51 'look':142 'lot':197 'm':168 'market':9 'mention':163 'never':182 'nich':34 'one':74,161,244 'page':178 'parti':109 'pie':251 'pixel':239 'point':207 'pretti':187 'product':47 'prospect':27 'purchas':226 'rate':8 're':43 'real':78 'retail':35 'reveal':54 'ridicul':194 'roi':235 'sdk':58,136 'see':90 'seo':14 'servic':37,166 'shoddi':135 'sky':254 'state':106 'step':247 'store':39 'studi':93 'took':183 'track':238 'tri':11 'two':108 'unless':113 'unlik':138 'us':105,126 'use':236 'user':115,230 'voic':218 'way':122,149 'wiretap':111 'wonder':170 'word':201 'would':83"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5303026"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700184902 {#2068
    date: 2023-11-17 02:35:02.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699959742 {#2072
    date: 2023-11-14 12:02:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 122841
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2065
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3565 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3508 …}
    +slug: "How-marketing-companies-use-Active-listening-voice-data-to-target"
    +title: "How marketing companies use "Active listening" voice data to target advertising to the EXACT people businesses are looking for"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      This just blows my mind and makes me feel sick to my stomach that such company’s like CMG Local Solutions do this sort of thing even exist! 🤢🤮\n
      \n
      Note: I did not want to use the ‘URL’ field in this post to add a direct link to this company as they use a pixel tracker (see post title). I don *not* recommend you visit [it](https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening). Instead, I’ll quote them here:\n
      \n
      > **It’s True. Your Devices Are Listening to You.**With Active Listening, CMG can now use voice data to target your advertising to the EXACT people you are looking for.\n
      \n
      > **magine This…**What could it do for your business, if you were able to target potential clients or customers who are using terms like this in their day to day conversations:\n
      \n
      > The car lease ends in a month- we need a plan. We need to get serious about planning for retirement. A mini van would be perfect for us. This AC is on it’s last leg! Do I see mold on the ceiling? We need a better mortgage rate.\n
      \n
      > **Active Listening can make that happen for you!**We know this sounds like something from the future, but we are there! We can customize your campaign to listen for any keywords/targets relevant to your business. Here is how we do it:\n
      \n
      > **Create Personas**We create buyer personas by uploading past client data into the platform.\n
      \n
      > **Identify Keywords**We identify top performing keywords relative to the type of customer you are looking for.\n
      \n
      > **Tracking**We set up tracking via pixel placed on your site, so we can track your ROI in real time.\n
      \n
      > **Listening**Active Listening begins and is analyzed via AI to detect pertinent conversations via smartphones, smart tvs and other devices.\n
      \n
      > **Analysis**As qualified consumers are detected, a 360 analysis via AI on past behaviors of each potential customer occurs.\n
      \n
      > **Create a List**With the audience information gathered, an encrypted evergreen audience list is created.\n
      \n
      > **Re-targeting**We use the list to target your advertising via many different platforms and tactics including:\n
      \n
      - Streaming TV/OTT\n
      - Streaming Audio\n
      - Display Ads\n
      - Paid Social Media\n
      - YouTube\n
      - Mobile Precise\n
      - Google/Bing Search (PPC)\n
      \n
      > **Claim Your Exclusive Territory Before Your Competitor**Our technology provides a process that makes it possible to know exactly when someone is in the market for your services in real-time, giving you a significant advantage over your competitors. Territories are available in 10 or 20 mile radiuses, but customizations can be made for regional, state and national coverage.\n
      \n
      Here’s the best part! 🤥\n
      \n
      > **We know what you are thinking…**Is this legal? YES- it is totally legal for phones and devices to listen to you. That’s because consumers usually give consent when accepting terms and conditions of software updates or app downloads\n
      \n
      Is it just me or does the world feel more and more everyday like a dystopian nightmare, a bad joke, satire? Ahhhh!\n
      \n
      What’s your thoughts on this?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 42
    +favouriteCount: 191
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1700112400 {#3560
      date: 2023-11-16 06:26:40.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3567 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3569 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3573 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3575 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3577 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2069}
    ]
    -id: 12872
    -titleTs: "'activ':5 'advertis':11 'busi':16 'compani':3 'data':8 'exact':14 'listen':6 'look':18 'market':2 'peopl':15 'target':10 'use':4 'voic':7"
    -bodyTs: "'/cmg-active-listening).':68 '10':408 '20':410 '360':304 'abl':117 'ac':165 'accept':459 'activ':85,185,278 'ad':354 'add':43 'advantag':400 'advertis':96,341 'ahhhh':490 'ai':285,307 'analysi':297,305 'analyz':283 'app':467 'audienc':321,327 'audio':352 'avail':406 'bad':487 'begin':280 'behavior':310 'best':427 'better':182 'blow':3 'busi':113,219 'buyer':230 'campaign':210 'car':137 'ceil':178 'claim':364 'client':121,235 'cmg':19,87 'compani':16,49 'competitor':370,403 'condit':462 'consent':457 'consum':300,454 'convers':135,289 'could':108 'coverag':423 'creat':226,229,316,330 'custom':123,208,252,314,414 'data':92,236 'day':132,134 'detect':287,302 'devic':79,296,446 'differ':344 'direct':45 'display':353 'download':468 'dystopian':484 'encrypt':325 'end':139 'even':27 'evergreen':326 'everyday':481 'exact':99,382 'exclus':366 'exist':28 'feel':9,477 'field':38 'futur':201 'gather':323 'get':150 'give':396,456 'google/bing':361 'happen':190 'identifi':240,243 'includ':348 'inform':322 'instead':69 'joke':488 'keyword':241,246 'keywords/targets':215 'know':194,381,430 'last':170 'leas':138 'leg':171 'legal':437,442 'like':18,128,197,482 'link':46 'list':318,328,337 'listen':81,86,186,212,277,279,448 'll':71 'local':20 'look':103,255 'made':417 'magin':105 'make':7,188,377 'mani':343 'market':388 'media':357 'mile':411 'mind':5 'mini':157 'mobil':359 'mold':175 'month':142 'mortgag':183 'nation':422 'need':144,148,180 'nightmar':485 'note':29 'occur':315 'paid':355 'part':428 'past':234,309 'peopl':100 'perfect':161 'perform':245 'persona':227,231 'pertin':288 'phone':444 'pixel':54,263 'place':264 'plan':146,153 'platform':239,345 'possibl':379 'post':41,57 'potenti':120,313 'ppc':363 'precis':360 'process':375 'provid':373 'qualifi':299 'quot':72 'radius':412 'rate':184 're':332 're-target':331 'real':275,394 'real-tim':393 'recommend':62 'region':419 'relat':247 'relev':216 'retir':155 'roi':273 'satir':489 'search':362 'see':56,174 'serious':151 'servic':391 'set':259 'sick':10 'signific':399 'site':267 'smart':292 'smartphon':291 'social':356 'softwar':464 'solut':21 'someon':384 'someth':198 'sort':24 'sound':196 'state':420 'stomach':13 'stream':349,351 'tactic':347 'target':94,119,333,339 'technolog':372 'term':127,460 'territori':367,404 'thing':26 'think':434 'thought':494 'time':276,395 'titl':58 'top':244 'total':441 'track':257,261,271 'tracker':55 'true':77 'tv/ott':350 'tvs':293 'type':250 'updat':465 'upload':233 'url':37 'us':163 'use':35,52,90,126,335 'usual':455 'van':158 'via':262,284,290,306,342 'visit':64 'voic':91 'want':33 'world':476 'would':159 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com':67 'www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening).':66 'yes':438 'youtub':358"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700038882
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/14867323"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700174105 {#3547
      date: 2023-11-16 23:35:05.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699952482 {#3524
      date: 2023-11-14 10:01:22.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2074 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    This is BS. It’s a 3rd rate marketing group trying to game SEO for lead gen.\n
    \n
    Go ahead and contact them, claiming to be a prospective client with a few hundred (insert niche retail or service here) stores and that you’re interested in their product.\n
    \n
    At best they’ll end up revealing they have a SDK or some crap to do the active listening in your own app if you have one.\n
    \n
    If this were real, more than this company would be doing it, and you’d see actual case studies around it.\n
    \n
    Also, it’s 1000% not legal in half the US states given two party consent wiretapping laws unless the users are agreeing to it in some way, which again brings us back to that at best this is some shoddy SDK (and unlikely even that).\n
    \n
    Edit: Looking at it closer and given the way it isn’t linked at all from elsewhere and is a one off mention of the services, I’m actually wondering if this was an April Fool’s page that they just never took down. It’s pretty funny if that, especially given the ridiculousness of a lot of the buzz word heavy language in the bullet points. Like the idea that they are actively listening to the voice data and then having AI analyze the purchase history of the users to then cross attribute ROI using your “tracking pixel” is hilarious.\n
    \n
    Even just one of those steps is such a pie in the sky claim even for most billion dollar agencies.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 87
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700219859 {#2073
    date: 2023-11-17 12:17:39.0 +01:00
  }
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    "@Denatured@lemm.ee"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
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  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2051 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2059 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
  -id: 122841
  -bodyTs: "'1000':99 '3rd':7 'activ':65,214 'actual':91,169 'agenc':261 'agre':117 'ahead':19 'ai':223 'also':96 'analyz':224 'app':70 'april':175 'around':94 'attribut':234 'back':127 'best':49,131 'billion':259 'bring':125 'bs':3 'bullet':206 'buzz':200 'case':92 'claim':23,255 'client':28 'closer':145 'compani':82 'consent':110 'contact':21 'crap':61 'cross':233 'd':89 'data':219 'dollar':260 'edit':141 'elsewher':157 'end':52 'especi':191 'even':139,242,256 'fool':176 'funni':188 'game':13 'gen':17 'given':107,147,192 'go':18 'group':10 'half':103 'heavi':202 'hilari':241 'histori':227 'hundr':32 'idea':210 'insert':33 'interest':44 'isn':151 'languag':203 'law':112 'lead':16 'legal':101 'like':208 'link':153 'listen':66,215 'll':51 'look':142 'lot':197 'm':168 'market':9 'mention':163 'never':182 'nich':34 'one':74,161,244 'page':178 'parti':109 'pie':251 'pixel':239 'point':207 'pretti':187 'product':47 'prospect':27 'purchas':226 'rate':8 're':43 'real':78 'retail':35 'reveal':54 'ridicul':194 'roi':235 'sdk':58,136 'see':90 'seo':14 'servic':37,166 'shoddi':135 'sky':254 'state':106 'step':247 'store':39 'studi':93 'took':183 'track':238 'tri':11 'two':108 'unless':113 'unlik':138 'us':105,126 'use':236 'user':115,230 'voic':218 'way':122,149 'wiretap':111 'wonder':170 'word':201 'would':83"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5303026"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700184902 {#2068
    date: 2023-11-17 02:35:02.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699959742 {#2072
    date: 2023-11-14 12:02:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 122841
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
33 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
34 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2110
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3544 …}
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38 DENIED moderate 
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39 DENIED edit 
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40 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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    It’s the board for the non-profit which owns and controls the LLC, and none of the board members have equity in the non-profit.\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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41 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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Show voter details
42 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2054
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        Rumoured from out of people’s asses.\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
43 DENIED edit 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
44 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
45 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
46 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2054
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3484 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2058 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3526 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3528 …}
    +slug: "You-know-what-I-ll-just-wait"
    +title: "You know what? I'll just wait..."
    +url: "https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/b88b03fa-8471-40f2-a436-645ea8859c05.webp"
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3535 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3537 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3539 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052}
    ]
    -id: 14054
    -titleTs: "'know':2 'll':5 'wait':7"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700362458
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.zip/post/5728367"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700276058 {#3507
      date: 2023-11-18 03:54:18.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2058 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    Rumoured from out of people’s asses.\n
    \n
    The CEO of Take Two said a comment about how he wished games were priced based on the hours of gameplay provided and not flat pricing.\n
    \n
    Which then got clickbait headlines being written as outrage bait hypothesizing that in such a world GTA 6 proving 150 hours of content would be priced at $150.\n
    \n
    Which evolved to headlines baiting even more outrage suggesting the CEO was actually thinking of pricing the game at $150.\n
    \n
    Then people falling for the outrage bait have been writing pieces or creating memes in opposition of $150 game pricing - which literally has zero indications of being a thing.\n
    \n
    It’s total BS, and a good reflection of just how shoddy games ‘journalism’ is these days.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 28
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700429087 {#2057
    date: 2023-11-19 22:24:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +mentions: [
    "@CluelessDude@lemmy.zip"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
  -id: 140999
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  +ranking: 0
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700827397 {#2050
    date: 2023-11-24 13:03:17.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700429087 {#2055
    date: 2023-11-19 22:24:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 140999
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2054
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3484 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2058 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3526 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3528 …}
    +slug: "You-know-what-I-ll-just-wait"
    +title: "You know what? I'll just wait..."
    +url: "https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/b88b03fa-8471-40f2-a436-645ea8859c05.webp"
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3537 …}
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    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052}
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    -id: 14054
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    +ranking: 1700362458
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.zip/post/5728367"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700276058 {#3507
      date: 2023-11-18 03:54:18.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2058 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    Rumoured from out of people’s asses.\n
    \n
    The CEO of Take Two said a comment about how he wished games were priced based on the hours of gameplay provided and not flat pricing.\n
    \n
    Which then got clickbait headlines being written as outrage bait hypothesizing that in such a world GTA 6 proving 150 hours of content would be priced at $150.\n
    \n
    Which evolved to headlines baiting even more outrage suggesting the CEO was actually thinking of pricing the game at $150.\n
    \n
    Then people falling for the outrage bait have been writing pieces or creating memes in opposition of $150 game pricing - which literally has zero indications of being a thing.\n
    \n
    It’s total BS, and a good reflection of just how shoddy games ‘journalism’ is these days.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700429087 {#2057
    date: 2023-11-19 22:24:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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    "@CluelessDude@lemmy.zip"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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  -id: 140999
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  +ranking: 0
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    date: 2023-11-24 13:03:17.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700429087 {#2055
    date: 2023-11-19 22:24:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 140999
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
48 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2054
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3484 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2058 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3526 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3528 …}
    +slug: "You-know-what-I-ll-just-wait"
    +title: "You know what? I'll just wait..."
    +url: "https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/b88b03fa-8471-40f2-a436-645ea8859c05.webp"
    +body: null
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      date: 2023-11-22 00:46:06.0 +01:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3529 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3537 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3539 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052}
    ]
    -id: 14054
    -titleTs: "'know':2 'll':5 'wait':7"
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    +ranking: 1700362458
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.zip/post/5728367"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700276058 {#3507
      date: 2023-11-18 03:54:18.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2058 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    Rumoured from out of people’s asses.\n
    \n
    The CEO of Take Two said a comment about how he wished games were priced based on the hours of gameplay provided and not flat pricing.\n
    \n
    Which then got clickbait headlines being written as outrage bait hypothesizing that in such a world GTA 6 proving 150 hours of content would be priced at $150.\n
    \n
    Which evolved to headlines baiting even more outrage suggesting the CEO was actually thinking of pricing the game at $150.\n
    \n
    Then people falling for the outrage bait have been writing pieces or creating memes in opposition of $150 game pricing - which literally has zero indications of being a thing.\n
    \n
    It’s total BS, and a good reflection of just how shoddy games ‘journalism’ is these days.
    """
  +lang: "en"
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    "@CluelessDude@lemmy.zip"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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  -id: 140999
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  +ranking: 0
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/5437667"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700827397 {#2050
    date: 2023-11-24 13:03:17.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700429087 {#2055
    date: 2023-11-19 22:24:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 140999
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
50 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2340
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3504 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3546 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3440 …}
  +slug: "screams-exestentially"
  +title: "*screams exestentially*"
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/cb48617b-a6c6-4901-9174-dcb4be6acb97.png"
  +body: "[www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-4](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-4)"
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 38
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1699645262 {#3541
    date: 2023-11-10 20:41:02.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +tags: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3548 …}
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  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3558 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2340 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
      +body: "It’s about the evolving picture of the universe over the past 300 years and how so much about that picture changed so quickly and is still left with very big open questions."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
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        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
        "@EternalNicodemus@lemmy.world"
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      +ranking: 0
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  -id: 11374
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  +cross: false
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    date: 2023-11-09 11:11:04.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2340
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3504 …}
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  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3546 …}
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  }
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2340 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
      +body: "It’s about the evolving picture of the universe over the past 300 years and how so much about that picture changed so quickly and is still left with very big open questions."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        "@EternalNicodemus@lemmy.world"
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      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
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  +cross: false
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
52 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2340
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
      +body: "It’s about the evolving picture of the universe over the past 300 years and how so much about that picture changed so quickly and is still left with very big open questions."
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 104235
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    date: 2023-11-09 11:11:04.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
53 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
54 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3546 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3440 …}
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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    date: 2023-11-09 15:08:48.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 104235
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
55 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2340
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3504 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3546 …}
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    +slug: "screams-exestentially"
    +title: "*screams exestentially*"
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    +body: "[www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-4](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-4)"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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    -id: 11374
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-11-09 11:11:04.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +"title": 104235
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
56 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3504 …}
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    +slug: "screams-exestentially"
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    +body: "[www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-4](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-4)"
    +type: "image"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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    -id: 11374
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      date: 2023-11-09 11:11:04.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341 …}
  +body: "It’s about the evolving picture of the universe over the past 300 years and how so much about that picture changed so quickly and is still left with very big open questions."
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    "@EternalNicodemus@lemmy.world"
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null
 
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58 DENIED moderate 
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59 DENIED edit 
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60 DENIED moderate 
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    Mine is The Time Machine (2002) by director Simon Wells
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61 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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Show voter details
62 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2160
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      Suggestion: Please only post one title, if the title already posted in comments than instead of reposting it again just upvote it. But you are welcome to talk about this titles in more detail. Thank you for participating. (This is not a rule!)\n
      \n
      Edit: Please include a year or imdb link.\n
      \n
      Mine is The Time Machine (2002) by director Simon Wells
      """
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    +slug: "What-is-your-favorite-time-travel-movie-or-show"
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      Suggestion: Please only post one title, if the title already posted in comments than instead of reposting it again just upvote it. But you are welcome to talk about this titles in more detail. Thank you for participating. (This is not a rule!)\n
      \n
      Edit: Please include a year or imdb link.\n
      \n
      Mine is The Time Machine (2002) by director Simon Wells
      """
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66 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3445 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3488 …}
  +slug: "Double-slit"
  +title: "Double-slit"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
        \n
        [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
        \n
        Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
        \n
        [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
        \n
        Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
        \n
        So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      +mentions: [
        "@coja@lemmy.ml"
        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@Slowy@lemmy.world"
        "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
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      -id: 58033
      -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697672930 {#1699
        date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 58033
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1410 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        Eh, maybe.\n
        \n
        They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
        \n
        There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
        \n
        It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
        \n
        So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
        """
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        "@coja@lemmy.ml"
        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4656941"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697748501 {#1708
        date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 59918
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1383 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
        \n
        The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        "@coja@lemmy.ml"
        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 59970
      -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697750253 {#1384
        date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 59970
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1629 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
        \n
        If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
        """
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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      -id: 58176
      -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639488"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
        date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 58176
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1702 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
        \n
        There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
        \n
        Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
        """
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        "@coja@lemmy.ml"
        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
      ]
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 58174
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    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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      +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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      -id: 58179
      -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697682052 {#1728
        date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697682039 {#1736
        date: 2023-10-19 04:20:39.0 +02:00
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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      +ranking: 0
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697689239 {#2460
        date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 58285
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1741 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
        \n
        So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
        \n
        One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
        \n
        As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
        \n
        **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
        \n
        If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
        \n
        The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
        \n
        As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
        \n
        The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
        \n
        So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
        """
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1697683361 {#1716
        date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2364 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
        \n
        It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
        \n
        **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
        \n
        At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
        \n
        **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
        \n
        There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
        \n
        And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1567 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        It’s not a conspiracy.\n
        \n
        It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
        \n
        Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
        \n
        The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
        \n
        Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
        \n
        These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
        \n
        They were physicists.\n
        \n
        Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
        \n
        Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
        \n
        It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
        """
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        "@stolid_agnostic@lemmy.ml"
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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  ]
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    date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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   …2
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  +slug: "Double-slit"
  +title: "Double-slit"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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      +body: """
        While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
        \n
        [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
        \n
        Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
        \n
        [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
        \n
        Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
        \n
        So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      +body: """
        Eh, maybe.\n
        \n
        They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
        \n
        There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
        \n
        It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
        \n
        So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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      +body: """
        I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
        \n
        The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
        """
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        "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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      +body: """
        Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
        \n
        If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
        """
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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      +body: """
        One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
        \n
        There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
        \n
        Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
        """
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      +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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      +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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      +body: """
        I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
        \n
        So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
        \n
        One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
        \n
        As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
        \n
        **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
        \n
        If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
        \n
        The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
        \n
        As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
        \n
        The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
        \n
        So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
        """
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697683361 {#1717
        date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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      +body: """
        Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
        \n
        It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
        \n
        **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
        \n
        At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
        \n
        **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
        \n
        There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
        \n
        And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1567 …}
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      +body: """
        It’s not a conspiracy.\n
        \n
        It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
        \n
        Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
        \n
        The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
        \n
        Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
        \n
        These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
        \n
        They were physicists.\n
        \n
        Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
        \n
        Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
        \n
        It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
        """
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68 DENIED moderate 
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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      +body: """
        While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
        \n
        [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
        \n
        Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
        \n
        [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
        \n
        Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
        \n
        So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
        """
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        "@Slowy@lemmy.world"
        "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
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        date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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      +body: """
        Eh, maybe.\n
        \n
        They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
        \n
        There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
        \n
        It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
        \n
        So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
        """
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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      +body: """
        I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
        \n
        The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
        """
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 59970
      -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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        date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 59970
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +body: """
        Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
        \n
        If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
        """
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        "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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      -id: 58176
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
        date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 58176
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1702 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
      +body: """
        One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
        \n
        There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
        \n
        Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
        """
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
      ]
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 58174
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    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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      +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        "@pigup@lemmy.world"
        "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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      -id: 58179
      -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
      }
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:20:39.0 +02:00
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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        date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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      +body: """
        I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
        \n
        So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
        \n
        One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
        \n
        As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
        \n
        **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
        \n
        If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
        \n
        The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
        \n
        As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
        \n
        The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
        \n
        So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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        "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
      ]
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        date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +body: """
        Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
        \n
        It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
        \n
        **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
        \n
        At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
        \n
        **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
        \n
        There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
        \n
        And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
        """
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        "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +body: """
        It’s not a conspiracy.\n
        \n
        It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
        \n
        Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
        \n
        The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
        \n
        Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
        \n
        These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
        \n
        They were physicists.\n
        \n
        Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
        \n
        Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
        \n
        It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
        """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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        -id: 59970
        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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        -id: 58285
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58285
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
    \n
    [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
    \n
    Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
    \n
    [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
    \n
    Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
    \n
    So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
    """
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71 DENIED edit 
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          "@stolid_agnostic@lemmy.ml"
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  +body: """
    While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
    \n
    [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
    \n
    Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
    \n
    [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
    \n
    Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
    \n
    So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
    """
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72 DENIED moderate 
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
    \n
    [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
    \n
    Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
    \n
    [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
    \n
    Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
    \n
    So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
    """
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
        }
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59847
      }
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    Eh, maybe.\n
    \n
    They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
    \n
    There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
    \n
    It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
    \n
    So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
    """
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75 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697683361 {#1717
          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    Eh, maybe.\n
    \n
    They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
    \n
    There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
    \n
    It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
    \n
    So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
    """
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    Eh, maybe.\n
    \n
    They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
    \n
    There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
    \n
    It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
    \n
    So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
    """
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381}
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 6311
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
    \n
    The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
    """
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    "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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79 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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    +slug: "Double-slit"
    +title: "Double-slit"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@Slowy@lemmy.world"
          "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
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        -id: 58033
        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639488"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ad':66 'adher':114 'also':73 'answer':81 'around':116 'assumpt':90 'awar':18 'back':67 'bizarr':37 'bohemian':112 'bro':13 'chain':72 'choic':29 'collaps':49 'crowd':14 'd':108 'declar':77 'delay':28 'doesn':125 'eras':24,31,61 'exampl':106 'exist':127 'give':79 'go':103 'imagin':109 'inform':45,64 'insuffici':55 'interact':12,40 'isn':96 'issu':121 'key':4 'later':69 'like':58,82 'measur':42,137 'mechan':11,39,113 'necessarili':98 'one':1 'oper':87 'path':44,63 'point':5,131 'polar':59 'qft':92 'quantum':23,30 'rather':36 'singl':130 'someth':35,57 'somewher':117 'spacetim':133 'still':34,115 'sudden':54 'suffici':47 'sure':100 'take':120 'though':20 'variat':25 'worth':76 'would':119"
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697683361 {#1717
          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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  +body: """
    I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
    \n
    The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
    """
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80 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59918
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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    I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
    \n
    The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:39.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58179
      }
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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    ]
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  +body: """
    Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
    \n
    If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
    """
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83 DENIED edit 
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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      date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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  +body: """
    Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
    \n
    If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
    """
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84 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681717 {#1596
          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58174
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1737 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697682039 {#1736
          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:39.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58179
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2452 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58285
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58285
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1741 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639882"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697683361 {#1717
          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58202
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2364 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4656400"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697747121 {#2360
          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1567 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@stolid_agnostic@lemmy.ml"
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        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639245"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697701280 {#1564
          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681024 {#1566
          date: 2023-10-19 04:03:44.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58164
      }
    ]
    -id: 6311
    -titleTs: "'doubl':2 'double-slit':1 'slit':3"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1697755075
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6683375"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697668675 {#3467
      date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1629 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
  +body: """
    Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
    \n
    If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
    """
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    "@pigup@lemmy.world"
    "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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  -id: 58176
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    date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 58176
}
 
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    +slug: "Double-slit"
    +title: "Double-slit"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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  +body: """
    One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
    \n
    There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
    \n
    Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
    """
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87 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 59970
        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        -id: 58176
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58176
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
        }
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 6311
    -titleTs: "'doubl':2 'double-slit':1 'slit':3"
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      date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
    \n
    There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
    \n
    Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
    """
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88 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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    +slug: "Double-slit"
    +title: "Double-slit"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        -id: 58033
        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 59970
        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639488"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619}
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697683361 {#1717
          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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  +body: """
    One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
    \n
    There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
    \n
    Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59918
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 59970
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59970
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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91 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        -id: 58033
        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730}
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697672930 {#1699
          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58033
      }
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59970
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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95 DENIED edit 
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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96 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639488"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1702 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58174
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697682039 {#1736
          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:39.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697683361 {#1717
          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639245"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697701280 {#1564
          date: 2023-10-19 09:41:20.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 6311
    -titleTs: "'doubl':2 'double-slit':1 'slit':3"
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    +upVotes: 0
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      date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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    date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 58285
}
 
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98 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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    +slug: "Double-slit"
    +title: "Double-slit"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        -id: 58033
        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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        -id: 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639488"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
    \n
    So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
    \n
    One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
    \n
    As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
    \n
    **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
    \n
    If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
    \n
    The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
    \n
    As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
    \n
    The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
    \n
    So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
    """
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99 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 59970
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697750253 {#1384
          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        -id: 58176
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58174
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:25:21.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:23:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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    ]
    -id: 6311
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
    \n
    So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
    \n
    One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
    \n
    As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
    \n
    **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
    \n
    If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
    \n
    The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
    \n
    As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
    \n
    The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
    \n
    So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
    """
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    "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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100 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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    +slug: "Double-slit"
    +title: "Double-slit"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          "@Slowy@lemmy.world"
          "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
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        -id: 58033
        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 59970
        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639488"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58176
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58174
      }
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@coja@lemmy.ml"
          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
    \n
    So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
    \n
    One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
    \n
    As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
    \n
    **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
    \n
    If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
    \n
    The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
    \n
    As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
    \n
    The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
    \n
    So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
    """
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59918
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59970
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
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      }
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58202
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1567 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
    \n
    It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
    \n
    **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
    \n
    At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
    \n
    **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
    \n
    There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
    \n
    And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
    """
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103 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
    \n
    It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
    \n
    **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
    \n
    At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
    \n
    **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
    \n
    There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
    \n
    And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
    """
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104 DENIED moderate 
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          "@Slowy@lemmy.world"
          "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
        ]
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        -id: 58033
        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697672930 {#1699
          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58033
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1926
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1410 …}
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697748501 {#1708
          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59918
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1383 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1652 …}
        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 59970
        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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        -id: 58176
        -bodyTs: "'also':1 'apart':10 'back':29 'collaps':19 'effect':24 'eras':14,39 'fall':9 'go':28 'happen':7 'inform':37 'interfer':32 'interpret':3 'larg':8 'measur':22 'mechan':21 'path':36 'pattern':33 'polar':42 'quantum':13 'side':23 'variat':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58174
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58285
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58202
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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        +body: """
          It’s not a conspiracy.\n
          \n
          It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
          \n
          Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
          \n
          The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
          \n
          Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
          \n
          These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          They were physicists.\n
          \n
          Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
          \n
          Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
          \n
          It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
          """
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  +body: """
    Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
    \n
    It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
    \n
    **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
    \n
    At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
    \n
    **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
    \n
    There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
    \n
    And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697681849 {#1598
          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1702 …}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:15:17.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58174
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
        -bodyTs: "'/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':12 'choic':32 'claim':42 'delay':31 'en.m.wikipedia.org':11 'en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/quantum_eraser_experiment)':10 'eras':8,34 'excit':19 'experi':9 'explain':5 'might':17 'note':13 'noth':37 'physic':25 'quantum':7,33 'recent':23 'respond':21 'retrocaus':41 'video':26 'youtub':24"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/4639538"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
        }
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58285
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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          "@pigup@lemmy.world"
          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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          "@Stuka@lemmy.ml"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548}
    ]
    -id: 6311
    -titleTs: "'doubl':2 'double-slit':1 'slit':3"
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      date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    It’s not a conspiracy.\n
    \n
    It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
    \n
    Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
    \n
    The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
    \n
    Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
    \n
    These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
    \n
    They were physicists.\n
    \n
    Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
    \n
    Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
    \n
    It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
    """
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    date: 2023-10-19 04:03:44.0 +02:00
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}
 
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    +slug: "Double-slit"
    +title: "Double-slit"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5de34c6a-4738-4b4a-9555-51a9faa5a0a1.jpeg"
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html':29 '/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':71 '/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':54 '/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':32 '/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda':51 '2020':48 'addit':33 'address':5 'agre':139 'agreement':93 'air':45 'aliv':107 'appli':25 'aris':79 'arxiv.org':70 'arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)':69 'backward':19 'bake':109 'box':119 'cake':111 'cat':105,123 'celebr':112 'challeng':76 'chang':22 'comput':100 'conscious':9 'correct':126 'current':60 'd':89 'dead':122 'delayed/hidden':83 'didn':135 'doesn':3 'enough':132 'even':90 'experi':49 'fact':66,68 'favorit':62 'final':96 'find':12 'i.e':98 'interest':27 'kind':40 'layer':81 'led':56 'measur':38 'might':11,101 'need':137 'observ':84,103,127 'one':73 'open':117 'paper':64 'philosophi':35 'phys.org':28,31 'phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)':30 'quantum':37 'relat':67 'result':129 'review':97 'science.org':50 'separ':131 'sort':17 'stabl':65 'time':21 'titl':63 'today':26 'topic':7 'univers':92 'whether':87 'would':78,85 'www.science.org':53 'www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)':52"
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          date: 2023-10-19 01:48:50.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 22:48:21.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1381
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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        -id: 58176
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:42:41.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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  +body: """
    It’s not a conspiracy.\n
    \n
    It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
    \n
    Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
    \n
    The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
    \n
    Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
    \n
    These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
    \n
    They were physicists.\n
    \n
    Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
    \n
    Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
    \n
    It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
    """
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108 DENIED moderate 
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1610
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        +body: """
          While it doesn’t address the topic of consciousness, you might find some of how this sort of “backwards in time change” is being applied today interesting:\n
          \n
          [phys.org/…/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-10-simulations-scientific.html)\n
          \n
          Additionally, the philosophy of quantum measurement is kind of up in the air after a 2020 experiment:\n
          \n
          [science.org/…/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-founda…](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality)\n
          \n
          Which led to what’s currently my favorite titled paper, *Stable facts, relative facts*: [arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543](https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.15543)\n
          \n
          So one of the challenges that would arise from layers of delayed/hidden observations would be whether you’d even have universal agreement at the final review. i.e. The computer might have observed the cat as alive and baked a cake celebrating it, but then you open the box to a dead cat, each having correctly observed a result, just separated enough that they didn’t need to agree.
          """
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          "@kakes@sh.itjust.works"
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        +body: """
          Eh, maybe.\n
          \n
          They keep needing to adjust their interpretations based on new results, and I haven’t yet seen a compelling adjustment that explains the results of [*A strong no-go theorem on the Wigner’s friend paradox*](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x) (2020). That conflicting measurements of a superposition can be made seems to go against the inherent realism of pilot wave theories.\n
          \n
          There have been a few attempts to address the classical Wigner setup from a Bohemian point of view, but the experiment above was more “a two layered Bell” than Wigner’s friend despite being inspired by the latter.\n
          \n
          It actually looks like there’s already just a paper from two weeks ago (Li, *Wigner’s friend scenario and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics* (2023)) attempting to rework the pilot wave theory into a new interpretation predicted on a different interpretation of Born’s rule to square it with the no go experiments.\n
          \n
          So while I agree that it’s too early to call realist interpretations misunderstandings, I suspect the writing is on the wall and over time we’re going to see them drop off more and more, especially if the recent trend in experimental results throwing objective measurements into question continues.
          """
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        +body: """
          I agree, and my stance is the more interpretations the better, as each brings a different perspective to the table which in turn imagines up different experiments to try and prove or falsify different assumptions.\n
          \n
          The human need to try and find confirmation of one’s own views is toxic to academia, and all too often fields can be held back due to undue influence of specific thought leaders who subscribed to one perspective or another.
          """
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          "@doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 59970
        -bodyTs: "'academia':52 'agre':2 'anoth':76 'assumpt':35 'back':61 'better':11 'bring':14 'confirm':43 'differ':16,26,34 'due':62 'experi':27 'falsifi':33 'field':57 'find':42 'held':60 'human':37 'imagin':24 'influenc':65 'interpret':9 'leader':69 'need':38 'often':56 'one':45,73 'perspect':17,74 'prove':31 'specif':67 'stanc':5 'subscrib':71 'tabl':20 'thought':68 'toxic':50 'tri':29,40 'turn':23 'undu':64 'view':48"
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          date: 2023-10-19 23:17:33.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59970
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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        +body: """
          Also, their interpretation of what’s happening largely falls apart with the quantum eraser variations.\n
          \n
          If it’s collapse from mechanical measurement side effects, why does it go back to an interference pattern when which path information is erased by a polarizer?
          """
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          "@MxM111@kbin.social"
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58176
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1583 …2}
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        +body: """
          One of the key points that the “it’s just mechanical interactions, bro” crowd should be more aware of though are the quantum eraser variations (not the delayed choice quantum eraser).\n
          \n
          There is still something rather bizarre about mechanical interactions that measure which path information being sufficient to collapse on their own but suddenly insufficient when something like polarization which erases which path information is added back in later in the chain.\n
          \n
          Also, it’s worth declaring when giving an answer like this that you are operating under the assumptions of QFT, and that this isn’t necessarily **for sure** what’s going on. For example, I’d imagine there’s Bohemian mechanics adherents still around somewhere that would take issue with your “it doesn’t exist as a single point in spacetime until it’s measured.”
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1730
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        +body: "So how do you explain the [quantum eraser experiment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment) (note for those who might be excited to respond with recent YouTube physics videos, this is **not** the *delayed choice* quantum eraser, and has nothing to do with retrocausality claims)?"
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          "@PixxlMan@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 58179
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          date: 2023-10-19 04:20:52.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2453
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        +body: "Yes, effectively the photon goes through both slits, and the interference pattern or ballistic pattern relates to when decoherence occurs, either at the point a which slit measurement is made or at the point it hits the detector."
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:20:39.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1739
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        +body: """
          I’m assuming you are asking about the first part?\n
          \n
          So the double slit experiment was a starting point, and there’s been a bunch of variations testing different aspects.\n
          \n
          One of which is that we can ‘tag’ the photons that go through path A with an indication it went through path A and tag photons passing through path B accordingly.\n
          \n
          As would be expected, when tagged this way both result in ballistic patterns as if particles and not waves.\n
          \n
          **But** the neat part is that if you add a polarizer after they are tagged which removes any way of recovering the tagging information about which path they went through, the interference pattern comes back and they behave like waves again.\n
          \n
          If the explanation for why it goes from a wave to a particle in the first place is something like “it was disturbed by the act of measurement”, adding *additional* disturbance would seem like the last thing to get it back to behaving like a wave, right?\n
          \n
          The variation suggests that the collapse of the wave function relates to the continued existence of recoverable information about the photon, not necessarily the physical mechanics of its measurement at that instant in time.\n
          \n
          As for the other comments I made, the TL;DR is that there’s easily a dozen different interpretations of why quantum weirdness occurs among physicists, and so very often when you see someone saying “this is how it works” what you are really seeing is “this is how it works in the theory I subscribe to” but a different physicist might have a very different explanation.\n
          \n
          The only explanation/representation that everyone can agree on is the mathematical representation, but translating the math into a physical reality is still very much disputed from physicist to physicist.\n
          \n
          So for example, the Bohemian mechanics view would have disagreed with the idea that the probabilistic nature of the photon before measurement is a physical reality, instead claiming that it is just a reflection of what we can know about the photon, and that it already physically is a point in spacetime that’s being guided by a wave, which is why it has wave-like behavior. But don’t worry too much about it - just keep in mind it’s worth taking any online explanations of why quanta behave in a certain way with a giant grain of salt as it’s not a settled topic.
          """
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          "@themeatbridge@lemmy.world"
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          "@HardlightCereal@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2361
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        +body: """
          Right, Roger Penrose and Eugene Wigner and a host of other physicists who subscribe/d to consciousness collapse interpretations aren’t people who care about evidence…\n
          \n
          It’s wild how many people are so quick to be confidently incorrect about something that *sounds* correct and science-ish but doesn’t at all reflect the actual subspecialty nuances.\n
          \n
          **Literally none of the QM interpretations have evidence supporting their particular interpretation.**\n
          \n
          At best there’s a handful that have been abandoned due to falsification, like interpretations predicated on local hidden variables.\n
          \n
          **There’s no more evidence for Copenhagen or many worlds than there is for consciousness collapse.**\n
          \n
          There’s simply different inherent assumptions that different physicists are willing to entertain, but it’s entirely a personal choice and ultimately not evidence driven.\n
          \n
          And the picture of assumptions changes over time. For example, post-2018 all popular interpretations other than many worlds have a new “pick at least one of three” assumptions that must be embraced following a new paradox. But currently that’s pretty much the only guiding factor, is what assumptions one is willing to entertain.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1548}
    ]
    -id: 6311
    -titleTs: "'doubl':2 'double-slit':1 'slit':3"
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      date: 2023-10-19 00:37:55.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    It’s not a conspiracy.\n
    \n
    It’s straight up some of the ways in which various accredited physicists were explaining how and why it does the weird things it does.\n
    \n
    Von Neuman arguably started it by correctly pointing out that the collapse could be taking place anywhere between the measurement device to the subjective perception of that measurement.\n
    \n
    The latter boundary was favored at the time by people like Fritz London, a five times Nobel nominee.\n
    \n
    Eugene Wigner further doubled down on the theory, and has the rare distinction of being one of the few people whose gedankenexperiment [eventually ended up realizing the very counterintuitive result it was proposed to explore](https://www.science.org/content/article/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality).\n
    \n
    These weren’t conspiracy theorists.\n
    \n
    They were physicists.\n
    \n
    Thinking outside the box and from all different angles to try and understand counterintuitive experimental results.\n
    \n
    Some of those theories have since been extrapolated from by popsci and new age circles to claim ridiculous things, but the existence of [“quantum stickers”](https://creatrixsolutions.com/other/emf-quantum-science-shield-stickers/) to cure your ills doesn’t mean Dirac and Schrodinger were crackpots, and so neither does someone claiming “The Secret” like powers based on quantum theory mean that folks like Wigner or Penrose are conspiracy theorists.\n
    \n
    It’s a legitimate interpretation with a number of very experienced physicists in favor of it over the years, even if not a popular one.
    """
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320
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  +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
  +title: "The Jebus Said So."
  +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
  +body: "AMEN!"
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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      +body: """
        “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
        \n
        > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
        \n
        [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
        \n
        It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
        \n
        I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
        \n
        P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
        """
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/6229700"
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        date: 2024-02-10 21:26:51.0 +01:00
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2322 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
      +body: """
        He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
        \n
        Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
        \n
        The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
        """
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        "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
      +body: """
        Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
        \n
        > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
        \n
        - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
        \n
        > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
        \n
        - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
        \n
        (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
        """
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        "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
        "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
        "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
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        date: 2024-02-10 12:57:09.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2219 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
      +body: """
        > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
        \n
        - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
        \n
        Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
        \n
        > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
        \n
        - Romans 3:8\n
        \n
        > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
        \n
        - Galatians 1:6-9\n
        \n
        You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
        \n
        > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
        \n
        - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
        \n
        > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
        \n
        - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
        \n
        So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
        \n
        > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
        \n
        It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
        \n
        > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
        \n
        You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
        \n
        > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
        \n
        You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
        """
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   …2
}
 
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  +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
  +title: "The Jebus Said So."
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  +body: "AMEN!"
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      +body: """
        “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
        \n
        > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
        \n
        [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
        \n
        It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
        \n
        I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
        \n
        P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
        """
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        date: 2024-02-10 21:26:51.0 +01:00
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
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      +body: """
        He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
        \n
        Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
        \n
        The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
        """
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
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      +body: """
        Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
        \n
        > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
        \n
        - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
        \n
        > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
        \n
        - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
        \n
        (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
        """
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
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      +body: """
        > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
        \n
        - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
        \n
        Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
        \n
        > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
        \n
        - Romans 3:8\n
        \n
        > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
        \n
        - Galatians 1:6-9\n
        \n
        You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
        \n
        > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
        \n
        - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
        \n
        > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
        \n
        - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
        \n
        So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
        \n
        > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
        \n
        It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
        \n
        > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
        \n
        You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
        \n
        > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
        \n
        You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
        """
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320
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  +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
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      +body: """
        “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
        \n
        > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
        \n
        [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
        \n
        It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
        \n
        I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
        \n
        P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
        """
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        date: 2024-02-10 21:26:51.0 +01:00
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +body: """
        He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
        \n
        Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
        \n
        The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-24 22:08:18.0 +01:00
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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      +body: """
        Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
        \n
        > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
        \n
        - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
        \n
        > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
        \n
        - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
        \n
        (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
        """
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        date: 2024-02-10 12:57:09.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-24 22:13:02.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
      +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
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      +body: """
        > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
        \n
        - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
        \n
        Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
        \n
        > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
        \n
        - Romans 3:8\n
        \n
        > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
        \n
        - Galatians 1:6-9\n
        \n
        You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
        \n
        > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
        \n
        - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
        \n
        > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
        \n
        - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
        \n
        So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
        \n
        > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
        \n
        It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
        \n
        > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
        \n
        You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
        \n
        > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
        \n
        You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
        """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
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        +body: """
          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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     …2
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    “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
    \n
    > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
    \n
    [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
    \n
    It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
    \n
    I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
    \n
    P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
    """
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115 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
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          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
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          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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    “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
    \n
    > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
    \n
    [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
    \n
    It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
    \n
    I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
    \n
    P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
    """
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116 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
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    +body: "AMEN!"
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          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
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          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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    “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
    \n
    > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
    \n
    [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
    \n
    It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
    \n
    I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
    \n
    P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
    """
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          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
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          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
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          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
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          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
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          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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    He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
    \n
    Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
    \n
    The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
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119 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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        +body: """
          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
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          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
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        -bodyTs: "'/r/academicbiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)':45 '1':89 '15':100 '2':84 '21st':73 '2nd':62 'alreadi':34 'anoth':99 'anyth':54 'around':68,83 'attitud':82 'base':49 'biblic':27 'canon':11 'centuri':63,74 'chang':66 'christian':12 'd':76 'date':53 'didn':19 'disagr':9 'everyth':1 'forgeri':95 'gnostic':59 'group':87 'happili':77 'histor':112 'jesus':113 'knew':32 'larg':48 'last':98 'mani':104 'oh':13 'outdat':51 'p.s':102 'permiss':3 'record':17 'scholar':28,107 'small':8 'sure':25,40 'tautolog':52 'think':108 'timothi':22,85,90 'titus':92 'turn':70 'wager':78 'whiff':57 'won':96 'wouldn':36 'write':21 'www.reddit.com':44 'www.reddit.com/r/academicbiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)':43 'year':101"
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          date: 2023-12-25 02:12:14.0 +01:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297}
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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          "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
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          date: 2024-02-10 12:57:09.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-24 22:13:02.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 249462
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2219 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
        +body: """
          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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    -id: 24347
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    He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
    \n
    Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
    \n
    The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
    """
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}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
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    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
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          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
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        +body: """
          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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    He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
    \n
    Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
    \n
    The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
    """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2322 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
        +body: """
          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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          "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703452098 {#2302
          date: 2023-12-24 22:08:18.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 249451
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2219 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
        +body: """
          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
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    ]
    -id: 24347
    -titleTs: "'jebus':2 'said':3"
    -bodyTs: "'amen':1"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1703473853
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    +apId: "https://startrek.website/post/4975690"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703387453 {#3442
      date: 2023-12-24 04:10:53.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
  +body: """
    Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
    \n
    > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
    \n
    - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
    \n
    > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
    \n
    - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
    \n
    (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
    """
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    "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
123 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3156 …}
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:22:54.0 +01:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3469 …}
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    +children: [
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
        +body: """
          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
          "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
          "@kromem@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2024-02-10 21:26:51.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-25 02:12:14.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 250003
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2322 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
        +body: """
          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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          "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
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        -id: 249451
        -bodyTs: "'almost':3 'around':37 'bitter':14 'canon':47 'central':40 'certain':4 'common':30 'construct':8 'cult':35 'death':24 'decad':20 'depict':44 'element':52 'end':11 'everi':34 'extrem':29 'faction':16 'featur':31 'fiction':6,7,51 'figur':41,61 'first':64 'histor':39,60 'idea':55 'jesus':46 'like':48 'ludicr':68 'mani':50 'near':33 'oppos':15 'organ':36 'place':65 'pretti':67 'specif':43 'splinter':17 'suppos':23 'within':19"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.world/comment/6226947"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703452098 {#2302
          date: 2023-12-24 22:08:18.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 249451
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
        +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2320 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2315 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2219 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
        +body: """
          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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     …2
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    Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
    \n
    > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
    \n
    - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
    \n
    > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
    \n
    - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
    \n
    (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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124 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
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    +body: "AMEN!"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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          > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
          \n
          - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
          \n
          Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
          \n
          > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
          \n
          - Romans 3:8\n
          \n
          > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
          \n
          - Galatians 1:6-9\n
          \n
          You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
          \n
          > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
          \n
          - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
          \n
          > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
          \n
          - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
          \n
          So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
          \n
          > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
          \n
          It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
          \n
          > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
          \n
          You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
          \n
          > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
          \n
          You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
          """
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    Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
    \n
    > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
    \n
    - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
    \n
    > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
    \n
    - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
    \n
    (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-12-25 02:12:14.0 +01:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2297
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          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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          "@afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2290
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2321 …}
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        +body: """
          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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          "@AnonWyo@startrek.website"
          "@m0darn@lemmy.ca"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221}
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    -id: 24347
    -titleTs: "'jebus':2 'said':3"
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      date: 2023-12-24 04:10:53.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
    \n
    - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
    \n
    Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
    \n
    > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
    \n
    - Romans 3:8\n
    \n
    > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
    \n
    - Galatians 1:6-9\n
    \n
    You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
    \n
    > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
    \n
    - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
    \n
    > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
    \n
    - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
    \n
    So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
    \n
    > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
    \n
    It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
    \n
    > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
    \n
    You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
    \n
    > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
    \n
    You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
    """
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127 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
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        +body: """
          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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    -id: 24347
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     …2
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  +body: """
    > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
    \n
    - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
    \n
    Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
    \n
    > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
    \n
    - Romans 3:8\n
    \n
    > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
    \n
    - Galatians 1:6-9\n
    \n
    You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
    \n
    > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
    \n
    - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
    \n
    > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
    \n
    - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
    \n
    So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
    \n
    > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
    \n
    It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
    \n
    > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
    \n
    You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
    \n
    > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
    \n
    You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221
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    +slug: "The-Jebus-Said-So"
    +title: "The Jebus Said So."
    +url: "https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/c14131a4-757b-42e1-a158-08b26d1ab0ba.jpeg"
    +body: "AMEN!"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2208
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        +body: """
          “Everything is permissible for me” is a small disagreement with canonical Christianity?\n
          \n
          > Oh and for the record he didn’t write Timothy. I am sure a biblical scholar such as yourself knew that already.\n
          \n
          [I wouldn’t be so sure about that.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/zlagpy/me_myself_and_paul_relative_1st_person_pronoun/)\n
          \n
          It’s largely based on outdated tautology dating anything with a whiff of Gnosticism to the 2nd century which only changed up around the turn of the 21st century.\n
          \n
          I’d happily wager with you that attitudes around 2 Timothy’s grouping with 1 Timothy and Titus (which are forgeries) won’t last another 15 years.\n
          \n
          P.S. How many of those scholars think there was no historical Jesus?
          """
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          date: 2024-02-10 21:26:51.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          He was almost certainly not fictional.\n
          \n
          Fictional constructs don’t end up having bitterly opposed factions splintering off within decades of their supposed death, but that’s an extremely common feature of nearly every cult organized around a historical central figure.\n
          \n
          The specific depiction of Jesus canonized likely has many fictional elements, but the idea that there was no historical figure in the first place is pretty ludicrous.
          """
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        +body: """
          Extra-canonically he was certainly talking a lot about dank images:\n
          \n
          > Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 84\n
          \n
          > […] Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, […] an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."\n
          \n
          - Gospel of Thomas saying 22\n
          \n
          (This was more relating to Plato’s concept of *eikon* and what was effectively a version of the simulation hypothesis in antiquity, but if we throw out the context it could potentially be talking about making memes.)
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2221}
    ]
    -id: 24347
    -titleTs: "'jebus':2 'said':3"
    -bodyTs: "'amen':1"
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      date: 2023-12-24 04:10:53.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.\n
    \n
    - 2 Cor 11:4-5\n
    \n
    Corinth then later on full on deposed Rome’s appointees which led to the letter from the bishop of Rome, *1 Clement* that’s almost entirely devoted to trying to damage control the schism.\n
    \n
    > And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their judgment is deserved!\n
    \n
    - Romans 3:8\n
    \n
    > I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!\n
    \n
    - Galatians 1:6-9\n
    \n
    You can even see some of the specific concepts that there was a schism about, such as whether there was an over-realized eschatology:\n
    \n
    > As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.\n
    \n
    - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (likely a bit later than Paul)\n
    \n
    > Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying resurrection has already occurred. They are upsetting the faith of some.\n
    \n
    - 2 Timothy 2:16-18\n
    \n
    So I’m not sure where you get the notion there was one big happy family of Christian thought in Paul’s time and the later 1st century CE when literally the earliest records of Christianity we have are so concerned with competing traditions and ideas. You may be mistaking the survivorship bias of cannonical Christianity eradicating most competing thought later on for a picture of unity (as that’s what they try to project) which is why a closer read is warranted.\n
    \n
    > Plus you know we have no evidence that Buddhism had that fighting after Siddharth death\n
    \n
    It had that fighting even *before* Siddhartha’s death when his brother in law [Devadatta](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) broke away to form his own group.\n
    \n
    > Mormons didn’t break out into civil war after Smith died.\n
    \n
    You might want to read up on the [succession crisis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints))\n
    \n
    > Scientologists are also doing fine.\n
    \n
    You might want to look into the [Free Zone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) schisms from Scientology near and after L Ron’s death.
    """
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130 DENIED moderate 
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  +slug: "Sleeping-Beauty-Trolley-Problem"
  +title: "Sleeping Beauty Trolley Problem"
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      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2327 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2333 …}
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
131 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2060
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3439 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3440 …}
  +slug: "Sleeping-Beauty-Trolley-Problem"
  +title: "Sleeping Beauty Trolley Problem"
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/f47fa091-84ab-42d0-b8b9-c8681b91f283.png"
  +body: "OC just for you! ♥️"
  +type: "image"
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  }
  +ip: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3449 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3455 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3457 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3459 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2060 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
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  -id: 10658
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    date: 2023-11-07 00:20:36.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
132 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2060
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3439 …}
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  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3459 …}
  +children: [
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    date: 2023-11-07 00:20:36.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
133 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
134 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2060
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
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     …2
  }
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  -id: 101336
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
135 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2060
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1587 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3439 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3440 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3457 …}
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      date: 2023-11-07 00:20:36.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  -id: 101336
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    date: 2023-11-08 12:10:39.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
136 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2060
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
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      date: 2023-11-07 00:20:36.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
137 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
138 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2080
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
139 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2080
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
140 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2080
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
141 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
142 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
143 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2063
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
144 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2063
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
145 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
146 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
147 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
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          "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
          "@PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
        -id: 100789
        -bodyTs: "'chalamet':3 'link':5 'star':1 'timothi':2"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699414212 {#2098
          date: 2023-11-08 04:30:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 100789
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131}
    ]
    -id: 11025
    -titleTs: "'action':8 'announc':4 'legend':9 'live':7 'live-act':6 'movi':12 'nintendo':1 'offici':3 'zelda':11"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699399410 {#2965
      date: 2023-11-08 00:23:30.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2064 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: "This is going to be a disaster."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700094933 {#2133
    date: 2023-11-16 01:35:33.0 +01:00
  }
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    "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
  ]
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  -id: 100794
  -bodyTs: "'disast':7 'go':3"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699414386 {#2129
    date: 2023-11-08 04:33:06.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 100794
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
148 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
  +user: App\Entity\User {#260 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2080
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2749 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2064 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3320 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3384 …}
    +slug: "Nintendo-has-officially-announced-a-live-action-Legend-of-Zelda-movie"
    +title: "Nintendo has officially announced a live-action 'Legend of Zelda' movie."
    +url: "https://www.nintendo.co.jp/corporate/release/en/2023/231108.html"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1701695356 {#2239
      date: 2023-12-04 14:09:16.0 +01:00
    }
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3385 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3387 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3395 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3424 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3420 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3437 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2063
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2080 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2064 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "*Starring Timothy Chalamet as Link*"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 9
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1699414212 {#2077
          date: 2023-11-08 04:30:12.0 +01:00
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          "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
          "@PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee"
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          date: 2023-11-08 04:30:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 100789
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131}
    ]
    -id: 11025
    -titleTs: "'action':8 'announc':4 'legend':9 'live':7 'live-act':6 'movi':12 'nintendo':1 'offici':3 'zelda':11"
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1699485810
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699399410 {#2965
      date: 2023-11-08 00:23:30.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2064 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
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    date: 2023-11-16 01:35:33.0 +01:00
  }
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    "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
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    date: 2023-11-08 04:33:06.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 100794
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
149 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
150 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details