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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1648
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1648
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1648
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2096
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2096
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2096
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2196
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15 |
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2196
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16 |
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moderate
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2196
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17 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2217
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19 |
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2217
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20 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2217
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21 |
DENIED
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22 |
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23 |
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Show voter details
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24 |
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
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25 |
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Show voter details
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26 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720
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27 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720
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Show voter details
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28 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720
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+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2778 …}
+slug: "Wayland-heading-for-default-as-Mint-devs-add-to-Cinnamon"
+title: "Wayland heading for default as Mint devs add to Cinnamon 6 • The Register"
+url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/27/mint_wayland_cinnamon6/"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720}
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date: 2023-10-28 01:16:14.0 +02:00
}
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…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: null
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+body: "The “TLDR” is sub heading is completely misleading. Cinnamon devs see they have to move, that’s the reason. “Begging to work” on Wayland is not at all what the article says. Before you downvote, read it. Nothing in that article or the link to one dev’s blog says anything even remotely like that."
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} |
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Show voter details
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29 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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Show voter details
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30 |
DENIED
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moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1611
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
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+slug: "Bcachefs-Merged-into-the-Linux-6-7-Kernel"
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+url: "https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bcachefs-Merged-Linux-6.7"
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+body: "Triple bonus points if it can do swap files on the encrypted filesystem."
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726
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+body: "Dunno yet. I’m going to remain optimistic until then."
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1698756224 {#2777
date: 2023-10-31 13:43:44.0 +01:00
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+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
31 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1611
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
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+title: "Bcachefs Merged into the Linux 6.7 Kernel"
+url: "https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bcachefs-Merged-Linux-6.7"
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+children: [
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1616
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1598 …}
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+body: "Triple bonus points if it can do swap files on the encrypted filesystem."
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726
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+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
32 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1611
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726
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…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
33 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
34 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1616
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726
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35 |
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36 |
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37 |
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Show voter details
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38 |
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39 |
DENIED
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726
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+apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/13374111"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1698756224 {#2777
date: 2023-10-31 13:43:44.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1728 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1598 …}
+body: "Dunno yet. I’m going to remain optimistic until then."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699033986 {#1722
date: 2023-11-03 18:53:06.0 +01:00
}
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+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@clot27@lemm.ee"
"@lemann@lemmy.one"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
"@Unkend@lemmy.world"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1729 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1719 …}
-id: 87638
-bodyTs: "'dunno':1 'go':5 'm':4 'optimist':8 'remain':7 'yet':2"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4763903"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699033986 {#1721
date: 2023-11-03 18:53:06.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 87638
} |
|
Show voter details
|
40 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1611
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2756 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2796 …}
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2798 …}
+slug: "Bcachefs-Merged-into-the-Linux-6-7-Kernel"
+title: "Bcachefs Merged into the Linux 6.7 Kernel"
+url: "https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bcachefs-Merged-Linux-6.7"
+body: "[www.phoronix.com/news/Bcachefs-Merged-Linux-6.7](https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bcachefs-Merged-Linux-6.7)"
+type: "link"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 15
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+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699096982 {#2791
date: 2023-11-04 12:23:02.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2805 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2807 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2809 …}
+children: [
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1616
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1611 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1598 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1598 …}
+body: "Triple bonus points if it can do swap files on the encrypted filesystem."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 1
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1698801561 {#1705
date: 2023-11-01 02:19:21.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@clot27@lemm.ee"
"@lemann@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1628 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1599 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1625 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
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+commentCount: 0
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+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4682335"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1698801561 {#1711
date: 2023-11-01 02:19:21.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 85864
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1726}
]
-id: 9083
-titleTs: "'6.7':6 'bcachef':1 'kernel':7 'linux':5 'merg':2"
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+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1698838224
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/13374111"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1698756224 {#2777
date: 2023-10-31 13:43:44.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1728 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1598 …}
+body: "Dunno yet. I’m going to remain optimistic until then."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699033986 {#1722
date: 2023-11-03 18:53:06.0 +01:00
}
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"@clot27@lemm.ee"
"@lemann@lemmy.one"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
"@Unkend@lemmy.world"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
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+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1719 …}
-id: 87638
-bodyTs: "'dunno':1 'go':5 'm':4 'optimist':8 'remain':7 'yet':2"
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+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4763903"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699033986 {#1721
date: 2023-11-03 18:53:06.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 87638
} |
|
Show voter details
|
41 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
42 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2699 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Have-I-successfully-blocked-ssh-logins-to-root"
+title: "Have I successfully blocked ssh logins to root?"
+url: null
+body: """
I have a server where I believe I have disabled root login via ssh. I think it is done correctly, as I cannot login with root myself via ssh, but I would’ve thought that it would be reflected in `/var/log/auth.log`. Instead, it shows up as failed password entry. Is this intended?\n
\n
What I’ve done is to uncomment the `PermitRootLogin no` line in `/etc/ssh/sshd_config`. Rest of the config file is left at default.\n
\n
Bonus question: All login attempts by ssh seems to go over some random port (even my own successful logins). Why is this?
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 20
+favouriteCount: 36
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699784052 {#2735
date: 2023-11-12 11:14:12.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2740 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2743 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2745 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2747 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2749 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2751 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Let us see, shall we?\n
\n
```\n
\n
<span style="color:#323232;">ssh root@cyberwolfie.com\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">❯ cowsay Uh-oh\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> _______ \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">< Uh-oh >\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ------- \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ^__^\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (oo)_______\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (__) )/\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ||----w |\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> || ||\n
</span>\n
```\n
\n
;)
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 13
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699643250 {#2462
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: [
"323232"
]
+mentions: [
"@cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2467 …}
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-bodyTs: "'cowsay':8 'let':1 'oh':11,14 'oo':15 'root@cyberwolfie.com':7 'see':3 'shall':4 'ssh':6 'uh':10,13 'uh-oh':9,12 'us':2 'w':16"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4976734"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699643250 {#2458
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 108718
}
]
-id: 11766
-titleTs: "'block':4 'login':6 'root':8 'ssh':5 'success':3"
-bodyTs: "'/etc/ssh/sshd_config':65 '/var/log/auth.log':41 'attempt':79 'believ':7 'bonus':75 'cannot':23 'config':69 'correct':20 'default':74 'disabl':10 'done':19,56 'entri':49 'even':89 'fail':47 'file':70 'go':84 'instead':42 'intend':52 'left':72 'line':63 'login':12,24,78,93 'password':48 'permitrootlogin':61 'port':88 'question':76 'random':87 'reflect':39 'rest':66 'root':11,26 'seem':82 'server':4 'show':44 'ssh':14,29,81 'success':92 'think':16 'thought':34 'uncom':59 've':33,55 'via':13,28 'would':32,37"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699715739
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/7770730"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699629339 {#2721
date: 2023-11-10 16:15:39.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
43 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2699 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Have-I-successfully-blocked-ssh-logins-to-root"
+title: "Have I successfully blocked ssh logins to root?"
+url: null
+body: """
I have a server where I believe I have disabled root login via ssh. I think it is done correctly, as I cannot login with root myself via ssh, but I would’ve thought that it would be reflected in `/var/log/auth.log`. Instead, it shows up as failed password entry. Is this intended?\n
\n
What I’ve done is to uncomment the `PermitRootLogin no` line in `/etc/ssh/sshd_config`. Rest of the config file is left at default.\n
\n
Bonus question: All login attempts by ssh seems to go over some random port (even my own successful logins). Why is this?
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 20
+favouriteCount: 36
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699784052 {#2735
date: 2023-11-12 11:14:12.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2740 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2743 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2745 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2747 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2749 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2751 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Let us see, shall we?\n
\n
```\n
\n
<span style="color:#323232;">ssh root@cyberwolfie.com\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">❯ cowsay Uh-oh\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> _______ \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">< Uh-oh >\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ------- \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ^__^\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (oo)_______\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (__) )/\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ||----w |\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> || ||\n
</span>\n
```\n
\n
;)
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 13
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699643250 {#2462
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: [
"323232"
]
+mentions: [
"@cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2467 …}
-id: 108718
-bodyTs: "'cowsay':8 'let':1 'oh':11,14 'oo':15 'root@cyberwolfie.com':7 'see':3 'shall':4 'ssh':6 'uh':10,13 'uh-oh':9,12 'us':2 'w':16"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4976734"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699643250 {#2458
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 108718
}
]
-id: 11766
-titleTs: "'block':4 'login':6 'root':8 'ssh':5 'success':3"
-bodyTs: "'/etc/ssh/sshd_config':65 '/var/log/auth.log':41 'attempt':79 'believ':7 'bonus':75 'cannot':23 'config':69 'correct':20 'default':74 'disabl':10 'done':19,56 'entri':49 'even':89 'fail':47 'file':70 'go':84 'instead':42 'intend':52 'left':72 'line':63 'login':12,24,78,93 'password':48 'permitrootlogin':61 'port':88 'question':76 'random':87 'reflect':39 'rest':66 'root':11,26 'seem':82 'server':4 'show':44 'ssh':14,29,81 'success':92 'think':16 'thought':34 'uncom':59 've':33,55 'via':13,28 'would':32,37"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699715739
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/7770730"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699629339 {#2721
date: 2023-11-10 16:15:39.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
44 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2699 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Have-I-successfully-blocked-ssh-logins-to-root"
+title: "Have I successfully blocked ssh logins to root?"
+url: null
+body: """
I have a server where I believe I have disabled root login via ssh. I think it is done correctly, as I cannot login with root myself via ssh, but I would’ve thought that it would be reflected in `/var/log/auth.log`. Instead, it shows up as failed password entry. Is this intended?\n
\n
What I’ve done is to uncomment the `PermitRootLogin no` line in `/etc/ssh/sshd_config`. Rest of the config file is left at default.\n
\n
Bonus question: All login attempts by ssh seems to go over some random port (even my own successful logins). Why is this?
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 20
+favouriteCount: 36
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699784052 {#2735
date: 2023-11-12 11:14:12.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2740 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2743 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2745 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2747 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2749 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2751 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Let us see, shall we?\n
\n
```\n
\n
<span style="color:#323232;">ssh root@cyberwolfie.com\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">❯ cowsay Uh-oh\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> _______ \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">< Uh-oh >\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ------- \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ^__^\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (oo)_______\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (__) )/\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ||----w |\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> || ||\n
</span>\n
```\n
\n
;)
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 13
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699643250 {#2462
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: [
"323232"
]
+mentions: [
"@cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2467 …}
-id: 108718
-bodyTs: "'cowsay':8 'let':1 'oh':11,14 'oo':15 'root@cyberwolfie.com':7 'see':3 'shall':4 'ssh':6 'uh':10,13 'uh-oh':9,12 'us':2 'w':16"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4976734"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699643250 {#2458
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 108718
}
]
-id: 11766
-titleTs: "'block':4 'login':6 'root':8 'ssh':5 'success':3"
-bodyTs: "'/etc/ssh/sshd_config':65 '/var/log/auth.log':41 'attempt':79 'believ':7 'bonus':75 'cannot':23 'config':69 'correct':20 'default':74 'disabl':10 'done':19,56 'entri':49 'even':89 'fail':47 'file':70 'go':84 'instead':42 'intend':52 'left':72 'line':63 'login':12,24,78,93 'password':48 'permitrootlogin':61 'port':88 'question':76 'random':87 'reflect':39 'rest':66 'root':11,26 'seem':82 'server':4 'show':44 'ssh':14,29,81 'success':92 'think':16 'thought':34 'uncom':59 've':33,55 'via':13,28 'would':32,37"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699715739
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/7770730"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699629339 {#2721
date: 2023-11-10 16:15:39.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
45 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
46 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2699 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Have-I-successfully-blocked-ssh-logins-to-root"
+title: "Have I successfully blocked ssh logins to root?"
+url: null
+body: """
I have a server where I believe I have disabled root login via ssh. I think it is done correctly, as I cannot login with root myself via ssh, but I would’ve thought that it would be reflected in `/var/log/auth.log`. Instead, it shows up as failed password entry. Is this intended?\n
\n
What I’ve done is to uncomment the `PermitRootLogin no` line in `/etc/ssh/sshd_config`. Rest of the config file is left at default.\n
\n
Bonus question: All login attempts by ssh seems to go over some random port (even my own successful logins). Why is this?
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 20
+favouriteCount: 36
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699784052 {#2735
date: 2023-11-12 11:14:12.0 +01:00
}
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2740 …}
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+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2749 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2751 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461}
]
-id: 11766
-titleTs: "'block':4 'login':6 'root':8 'ssh':5 'success':3"
-bodyTs: "'/etc/ssh/sshd_config':65 '/var/log/auth.log':41 'attempt':79 'believ':7 'bonus':75 'cannot':23 'config':69 'correct':20 'default':74 'disabl':10 'done':19,56 'entri':49 'even':89 'fail':47 'file':70 'go':84 'instead':42 'intend':52 'left':72 'line':63 'login':12,24,78,93 'password':48 'permitrootlogin':61 'port':88 'question':76 'random':87 'reflect':39 'rest':66 'root':11,26 'seem':82 'server':4 'show':44 'ssh':14,29,81 'success':92 'think':16 'thought':34 'uncom':59 've':33,55 'via':13,28 'would':32,37"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699715739
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/7770730"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699629339 {#2721
date: 2023-11-10 16:15:39.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Let us see, shall we?\n
\n
```\n
\n
<span style="color:#323232;">ssh root@cyberwolfie.com\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">❯ cowsay Uh-oh\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> _______ \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">< Uh-oh >\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ------- \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ^__^\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (oo)_______\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (__) )/\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ||----w |\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> || ||\n
</span>\n
```\n
\n
;)
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 13
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699643250 {#2462
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
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+tags: [
"323232"
]
+mentions: [
"@cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2467 …}
-id: 108718
-bodyTs: "'cowsay':8 'let':1 'oh':11,14 'oo':15 'root@cyberwolfie.com':7 'see':3 'shall':4 'ssh':6 'uh':10,13 'uh-oh':9,12 'us':2 'w':16"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4976734"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699643250 {#2458
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 108718
} |
|
Show voter details
|
47 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2699 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Have-I-successfully-blocked-ssh-logins-to-root"
+title: "Have I successfully blocked ssh logins to root?"
+url: null
+body: """
I have a server where I believe I have disabled root login via ssh. I think it is done correctly, as I cannot login with root myself via ssh, but I would’ve thought that it would be reflected in `/var/log/auth.log`. Instead, it shows up as failed password entry. Is this intended?\n
\n
What I’ve done is to uncomment the `PermitRootLogin no` line in `/etc/ssh/sshd_config`. Rest of the config file is left at default.\n
\n
Bonus question: All login attempts by ssh seems to go over some random port (even my own successful logins). Why is this?
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 20
+favouriteCount: 36
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699784052 {#2735
date: 2023-11-12 11:14:12.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2740 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2743 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2745 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2747 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2749 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2751 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461}
]
-id: 11766
-titleTs: "'block':4 'login':6 'root':8 'ssh':5 'success':3"
-bodyTs: "'/etc/ssh/sshd_config':65 '/var/log/auth.log':41 'attempt':79 'believ':7 'bonus':75 'cannot':23 'config':69 'correct':20 'default':74 'disabl':10 'done':19,56 'entri':49 'even':89 'fail':47 'file':70 'go':84 'instead':42 'intend':52 'left':72 'line':63 'login':12,24,78,93 'password':48 'permitrootlogin':61 'port':88 'question':76 'random':87 'reflect':39 'rest':66 'root':11,26 'seem':82 'server':4 'show':44 'ssh':14,29,81 'success':92 'think':16 'thought':34 'uncom':59 've':33,55 'via':13,28 'would':32,37"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699715739
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/7770730"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699629339 {#2721
date: 2023-11-10 16:15:39.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Let us see, shall we?\n
\n
```\n
\n
<span style="color:#323232;">ssh root@cyberwolfie.com\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">❯ cowsay Uh-oh\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> _______ \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">< Uh-oh >\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ------- \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ^__^\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (oo)_______\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (__) )/\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ||----w |\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> || ||\n
</span>\n
```\n
\n
;)
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 13
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699643250 {#2462
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
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+tags: [
"323232"
]
+mentions: [
"@cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2467 …}
-id: 108718
-bodyTs: "'cowsay':8 'let':1 'oh':11,14 'oo':15 'root@cyberwolfie.com':7 'see':3 'shall':4 'ssh':6 'uh':10,13 'uh-oh':9,12 'us':2 'w':16"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
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+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4976734"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699643250 {#2458
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 108718
} |
|
Show voter details
|
48 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2456
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2699 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Have-I-successfully-blocked-ssh-logins-to-root"
+title: "Have I successfully blocked ssh logins to root?"
+url: null
+body: """
I have a server where I believe I have disabled root login via ssh. I think it is done correctly, as I cannot login with root myself via ssh, but I would’ve thought that it would be reflected in `/var/log/auth.log`. Instead, it shows up as failed password entry. Is this intended?\n
\n
What I’ve done is to uncomment the `PermitRootLogin no` line in `/etc/ssh/sshd_config`. Rest of the config file is left at default.\n
\n
Bonus question: All login attempts by ssh seems to go over some random port (even my own successful logins). Why is this?
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 20
+favouriteCount: 36
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1699784052 {#2735
date: 2023-11-12 11:14:12.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2740 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2743 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2745 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2747 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2749 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2751 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461}
]
-id: 11766
-titleTs: "'block':4 'login':6 'root':8 'ssh':5 'success':3"
-bodyTs: "'/etc/ssh/sshd_config':65 '/var/log/auth.log':41 'attempt':79 'believ':7 'bonus':75 'cannot':23 'config':69 'correct':20 'default':74 'disabl':10 'done':19,56 'entri':49 'even':89 'fail':47 'file':70 'go':84 'instead':42 'intend':52 'left':72 'line':63 'login':12,24,78,93 'password':48 'permitrootlogin':61 'port':88 'question':76 'random':87 'reflect':39 'rest':66 'root':11,26 'seem':82 'server':4 'show':44 'ssh':14,29,81 'success':92 'think':16 'thought':34 'uncom':59 've':33,55 'via':13,28 'would':32,37"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699715739
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/7770730"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699629339 {#2721
date: 2023-11-10 16:15:39.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Let us see, shall we?\n
\n
```\n
\n
<span style="color:#323232;">ssh root@cyberwolfie.com\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">❯ cowsay Uh-oh\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> _______ \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;">< Uh-oh >\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ------- \n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ^__^\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (oo)_______\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> (__) )/\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> ||----w |\n
</span><span style="color:#323232;"> || ||\n
</span>\n
```\n
\n
;)
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 13
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699643250 {#2462
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: [
"323232"
]
+mentions: [
"@cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2467 …}
-id: 108718
-bodyTs: "'cowsay':8 'let':1 'oh':11,14 'oo':15 'root@cyberwolfie.com':7 'see':3 'shall':4 'ssh':6 'uh':10,13 'uh-oh':9,12 'us':2 'w':16"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/4976734"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699643250 {#2458
date: 2023-11-10 20:07:30.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 108718
} |
|
Show voter details
|
49 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
50 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2377
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2718 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Sell-Me-on-Linux"
+title: "Sell Me on Linux"
+url: null
+body: """
I posted this as a comment in another post but when I got done I realized it would probably just be better as its own post. I’m sure I could find the answers I need myself but frankly I trust the userbase here more than most online articles.\n
\n
As my username hints at, I’m a lawyer. I’m considering starting my own firm as a solo practitioner. I need a computer and/or laptop for it, and as a new business my budget would be pretty tight. I’ve mostly only ever used windows, but I’m getting fed up with the bullshit, so I’m considering going with Linux.\n
\n
I assume Linux is capable of doing everything I need, which is primarily handling word documents, viewing PDFs, watching evidence videos, and online research. But my concern is that some of the more commonly used video types might have trouble on Linux, or that some of the word document templates I use in Windows might have compatibility issues.\n
\n
I’m also nervous about using an OS I’m not familiar with for business purposes right away.\n
\n
So I guess I’m asking a few questions. What is a reliable yet affordable option to get started? Are my concerns based in reality or is Linux going to be able to handle everything windows does without issues? What else might I need to know to use Linux comfortably from the get go? Is it going to take a lot of time and effort to get Linux running how I need it to?\n
\n
For reference, I do consider myself to be somewhat tech-savvy. I don’t code or anything, but I’ve built my last two home computers myself and I’m not scared of general software management, I just don’t make it myself.\n
\n
So, yeah, sell me on Linux, please.
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 145
+favouriteCount: 194
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1700260104 {#2753
date: 2023-11-17 23:28:24.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2758 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2761 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2763 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2765 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2767 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2769 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2377 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:\n
\n
- Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.\n
- Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.\n
- I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.\n
\n
Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 3
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1699909043 {#2371
date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
}
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+mentions: [
"@Sage_the_Lawyer@lemmy.world"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2360 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2361 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2372 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2386 …}
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+ranking: 0
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+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5066605"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699909043 {#2363
date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 120982
}
]
-id: 12078
-titleTs: "'linux':4 'sell':1"
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+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1699813237
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/8122211"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699726837 {#2741
date: 2023-11-11 19:20:37.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
51 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2377
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2718 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Sell-Me-on-Linux"
+title: "Sell Me on Linux"
+url: null
+body: """
I posted this as a comment in another post but when I got done I realized it would probably just be better as its own post. I’m sure I could find the answers I need myself but frankly I trust the userbase here more than most online articles.\n
\n
As my username hints at, I’m a lawyer. I’m considering starting my own firm as a solo practitioner. I need a computer and/or laptop for it, and as a new business my budget would be pretty tight. I’ve mostly only ever used windows, but I’m getting fed up with the bullshit, so I’m considering going with Linux.\n
\n
I assume Linux is capable of doing everything I need, which is primarily handling word documents, viewing PDFs, watching evidence videos, and online research. But my concern is that some of the more commonly used video types might have trouble on Linux, or that some of the word document templates I use in Windows might have compatibility issues.\n
\n
I’m also nervous about using an OS I’m not familiar with for business purposes right away.\n
\n
So I guess I’m asking a few questions. What is a reliable yet affordable option to get started? Are my concerns based in reality or is Linux going to be able to handle everything windows does without issues? What else might I need to know to use Linux comfortably from the get go? Is it going to take a lot of time and effort to get Linux running how I need it to?\n
\n
For reference, I do consider myself to be somewhat tech-savvy. I don’t code or anything, but I’ve built my last two home computers myself and I’m not scared of general software management, I just don’t make it myself.\n
\n
So, yeah, sell me on Linux, please.
"""
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You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:\n
\n
- Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.\n
- Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.\n
- I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.\n
\n
Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.
"""
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Show voter details
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52 |
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I posted this as a comment in another post but when I got done I realized it would probably just be better as its own post. I’m sure I could find the answers I need myself but frankly I trust the userbase here more than most online articles.\n
\n
As my username hints at, I’m a lawyer. I’m considering starting my own firm as a solo practitioner. I need a computer and/or laptop for it, and as a new business my budget would be pretty tight. I’ve mostly only ever used windows, but I’m getting fed up with the bullshit, so I’m considering going with Linux.\n
\n
I assume Linux is capable of doing everything I need, which is primarily handling word documents, viewing PDFs, watching evidence videos, and online research. But my concern is that some of the more commonly used video types might have trouble on Linux, or that some of the word document templates I use in Windows might have compatibility issues.\n
\n
I’m also nervous about using an OS I’m not familiar with for business purposes right away.\n
\n
So I guess I’m asking a few questions. What is a reliable yet affordable option to get started? Are my concerns based in reality or is Linux going to be able to handle everything windows does without issues? What else might I need to know to use Linux comfortably from the get go? Is it going to take a lot of time and effort to get Linux running how I need it to?\n
\n
For reference, I do consider myself to be somewhat tech-savvy. I don’t code or anything, but I’ve built my last two home computers myself and I’m not scared of general software management, I just don’t make it myself.\n
\n
So, yeah, sell me on Linux, please.
"""
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You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:\n
\n
- Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.\n
- Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.\n
- I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.\n
\n
Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.
"""
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…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
53 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
54 |
DENIED
|
moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370
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I posted this as a comment in another post but when I got done I realized it would probably just be better as its own post. I’m sure I could find the answers I need myself but frankly I trust the userbase here more than most online articles.\n
\n
As my username hints at, I’m a lawyer. I’m considering starting my own firm as a solo practitioner. I need a computer and/or laptop for it, and as a new business my budget would be pretty tight. I’ve mostly only ever used windows, but I’m getting fed up with the bullshit, so I’m considering going with Linux.\n
\n
I assume Linux is capable of doing everything I need, which is primarily handling word documents, viewing PDFs, watching evidence videos, and online research. But my concern is that some of the more commonly used video types might have trouble on Linux, or that some of the word document templates I use in Windows might have compatibility issues.\n
\n
I’m also nervous about using an OS I’m not familiar with for business purposes right away.\n
\n
So I guess I’m asking a few questions. What is a reliable yet affordable option to get started? Are my concerns based in reality or is Linux going to be able to handle everything windows does without issues? What else might I need to know to use Linux comfortably from the get go? Is it going to take a lot of time and effort to get Linux running how I need it to?\n
\n
For reference, I do consider myself to be somewhat tech-savvy. I don’t code or anything, but I’ve built my last two home computers myself and I’m not scared of general software management, I just don’t make it myself.\n
\n
So, yeah, sell me on Linux, please.
"""
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You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:\n
\n
- Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.\n
- Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.\n
- I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.\n
\n
Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.
"""
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+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699909043 {#2363
date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 120982
} |
|
Show voter details
|
55 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2377
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2718 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Sell-Me-on-Linux"
+title: "Sell Me on Linux"
+url: null
+body: """
I posted this as a comment in another post but when I got done I realized it would probably just be better as its own post. I’m sure I could find the answers I need myself but frankly I trust the userbase here more than most online articles.\n
\n
As my username hints at, I’m a lawyer. I’m considering starting my own firm as a solo practitioner. I need a computer and/or laptop for it, and as a new business my budget would be pretty tight. I’ve mostly only ever used windows, but I’m getting fed up with the bullshit, so I’m considering going with Linux.\n
\n
I assume Linux is capable of doing everything I need, which is primarily handling word documents, viewing PDFs, watching evidence videos, and online research. But my concern is that some of the more commonly used video types might have trouble on Linux, or that some of the word document templates I use in Windows might have compatibility issues.\n
\n
I’m also nervous about using an OS I’m not familiar with for business purposes right away.\n
\n
So I guess I’m asking a few questions. What is a reliable yet affordable option to get started? Are my concerns based in reality or is Linux going to be able to handle everything windows does without issues? What else might I need to know to use Linux comfortably from the get go? Is it going to take a lot of time and effort to get Linux running how I need it to?\n
\n
For reference, I do consider myself to be somewhat tech-savvy. I don’t code or anything, but I’ve built my last two home computers myself and I’m not scared of general software management, I just don’t make it myself.\n
\n
So, yeah, sell me on Linux, please.
"""
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699726837 {#2741
date: 2023-11-11 19:20:37.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:\n
\n
- Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.\n
- Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.\n
- I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.\n
\n
Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.
"""
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date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
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"@Sage_the_Lawyer@lemmy.world"
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+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699909043 {#2363
date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 120982
} |
|
Show voter details
|
56 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2377
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2718 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Sell-Me-on-Linux"
+title: "Sell Me on Linux"
+url: null
+body: """
I posted this as a comment in another post but when I got done I realized it would probably just be better as its own post. I’m sure I could find the answers I need myself but frankly I trust the userbase here more than most online articles.\n
\n
As my username hints at, I’m a lawyer. I’m considering starting my own firm as a solo practitioner. I need a computer and/or laptop for it, and as a new business my budget would be pretty tight. I’ve mostly only ever used windows, but I’m getting fed up with the bullshit, so I’m considering going with Linux.\n
\n
I assume Linux is capable of doing everything I need, which is primarily handling word documents, viewing PDFs, watching evidence videos, and online research. But my concern is that some of the more commonly used video types might have trouble on Linux, or that some of the word document templates I use in Windows might have compatibility issues.\n
\n
I’m also nervous about using an OS I’m not familiar with for business purposes right away.\n
\n
So I guess I’m asking a few questions. What is a reliable yet affordable option to get started? Are my concerns based in reality or is Linux going to be able to handle everything windows does without issues? What else might I need to know to use Linux comfortably from the get go? Is it going to take a lot of time and effort to get Linux running how I need it to?\n
\n
For reference, I do consider myself to be somewhat tech-savvy. I don’t code or anything, but I’ve built my last two home computers myself and I’m not scared of general software management, I just don’t make it myself.\n
\n
So, yeah, sell me on Linux, please.
"""
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date: 2023-11-17 23:28:24.0 +01:00
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+cross: false
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date: 2023-11-11 19:20:37.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:\n
\n
- Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.\n
- Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.\n
- I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.\n
\n
Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.
"""
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date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
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]
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699909043 {#2363
date: 2023-11-13 21:57:23.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 120982
} |
|
Show voter details
|
57 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
58 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1906
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2681 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2722 …}
+slug: "What-do-you-think-about-this"
+title: "What do you think about this?"
+url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyADkmRVe0U&t=1484s"
+body: "Since i see so much linux talk on lemmy i got curious and watched a video about the common distros. How true is the information in this video? The person hardly describes why debian and arch are just better than every other distro. At least i’m definitely now curious about Mint or something for gaming."
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date: 2023-11-18 18:49:32.0 +01:00
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+body: "Downvoted for clickbait title. Do better."
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date: 2023-11-17 17:39:04.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-16 19:27:15.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
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59 |
DENIED
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edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1906
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2681 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2720 …}
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2722 …}
+slug: "What-do-you-think-about-this"
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60 |
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61 |
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62 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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Show voter details
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64 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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Show voter details
|
65 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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66 |
DENIED
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moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1604
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A friend might let me install Linux on his secondary laptop he uses for university. He’s not a tinkerer and wants something that just works.\n
\n
Linux Mint is known for being very user-friendly and stable. Also easy to get help online.\n
\n
However, in my opinion Mint seems rather outdated, both with its Windows-like workflow, default icons and look and also Xorg. When I tried it I had some screen stuttering I couldn’t resolve, probably due to Xorg.\n
\n
Instead, Fedora with GNOME is very elegant and always uses the newest technologies. It feels and looks actually nice and not outdated. But I’d have to install media codecs via terminal first which suggests that Fedora is for experienced users. Also university wifi eduroam doesn’t work on Fedora for me because legacy TLS connection is not supported in Fedora (at least I couldn’t get it to work). I’m at a different uni than him tho, so it might work there. In general, less help on the web for Fedora than Mint.\n
\n
What do you think? (Btw, KDE is too convoluted in my opinion. Manjaro too, it breaks too often. I will not consider it.)\n
\n
EDIT: From what I’ve gathered so far, I should probably install Mint. He can try Fedora with a live usb or on my laptop. If he prefers that then I can warn him that this may be less stable and ask what he wants.\n
\n
I’ve only tried Ubuntu-based Mint, but LMDE is more future-proof so it will probably be that.
"""
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date: 2023-11-02 14:53:09.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-02 13:20:00.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
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Show voter details
|
67 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1604
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2701 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Fedora-or-Mint-for-noob"
+title: "Fedora or Mint for noob?"
+url: null
+body: """
A friend might let me install Linux on his secondary laptop he uses for university. He’s not a tinkerer and wants something that just works.\n
\n
Linux Mint is known for being very user-friendly and stable. Also easy to get help online.\n
\n
However, in my opinion Mint seems rather outdated, both with its Windows-like workflow, default icons and look and also Xorg. When I tried it I had some screen stuttering I couldn’t resolve, probably due to Xorg.\n
\n
Instead, Fedora with GNOME is very elegant and always uses the newest technologies. It feels and looks actually nice and not outdated. But I’d have to install media codecs via terminal first which suggests that Fedora is for experienced users. Also university wifi eduroam doesn’t work on Fedora for me because legacy TLS connection is not supported in Fedora (at least I couldn’t get it to work). I’m at a different uni than him tho, so it might work there. In general, less help on the web for Fedora than Mint.\n
\n
What do you think? (Btw, KDE is too convoluted in my opinion. Manjaro too, it breaks too often. I will not consider it.)\n
\n
EDIT: From what I’ve gathered so far, I should probably install Mint. He can try Fedora with a live usb or on my laptop. If he prefers that then I can warn him that this may be less stable and ask what he wants.\n
\n
I’ve only tried Ubuntu-based Mint, but LMDE is more future-proof so it will probably be that.
"""
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date: 2023-11-02 14:53:09.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-02 13:20:00.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
68 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1604
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2701 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Fedora-or-Mint-for-noob"
+title: "Fedora or Mint for noob?"
+url: null
+body: """
A friend might let me install Linux on his secondary laptop he uses for university. He’s not a tinkerer and wants something that just works.\n
\n
Linux Mint is known for being very user-friendly and stable. Also easy to get help online.\n
\n
However, in my opinion Mint seems rather outdated, both with its Windows-like workflow, default icons and look and also Xorg. When I tried it I had some screen stuttering I couldn’t resolve, probably due to Xorg.\n
\n
Instead, Fedora with GNOME is very elegant and always uses the newest technologies. It feels and looks actually nice and not outdated. But I’d have to install media codecs via terminal first which suggests that Fedora is for experienced users. Also university wifi eduroam doesn’t work on Fedora for me because legacy TLS connection is not supported in Fedora (at least I couldn’t get it to work). I’m at a different uni than him tho, so it might work there. In general, less help on the web for Fedora than Mint.\n
\n
What do you think? (Btw, KDE is too convoluted in my opinion. Manjaro too, it breaks too often. I will not consider it.)\n
\n
EDIT: From what I’ve gathered so far, I should probably install Mint. He can try Fedora with a live usb or on my laptop. If he prefers that then I can warn him that this may be less stable and ask what he wants.\n
\n
I’ve only tried Ubuntu-based Mint, but LMDE is more future-proof so it will probably be that.
"""
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date: 2023-11-02 14:53:09.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-02 13:20:00.0 +01:00
}
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…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
69 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
70 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1604
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2701 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Fedora-or-Mint-for-noob"
+title: "Fedora or Mint for noob?"
+url: null
+body: """
A friend might let me install Linux on his secondary laptop he uses for university. He’s not a tinkerer and wants something that just works.\n
\n
Linux Mint is known for being very user-friendly and stable. Also easy to get help online.\n
\n
However, in my opinion Mint seems rather outdated, both with its Windows-like workflow, default icons and look and also Xorg. When I tried it I had some screen stuttering I couldn’t resolve, probably due to Xorg.\n
\n
Instead, Fedora with GNOME is very elegant and always uses the newest technologies. It feels and looks actually nice and not outdated. But I’d have to install media codecs via terminal first which suggests that Fedora is for experienced users. Also university wifi eduroam doesn’t work on Fedora for me because legacy TLS connection is not supported in Fedora (at least I couldn’t get it to work). I’m at a different uni than him tho, so it might work there. In general, less help on the web for Fedora than Mint.\n
\n
What do you think? (Btw, KDE is too convoluted in my opinion. Manjaro too, it breaks too often. I will not consider it.)\n
\n
EDIT: From what I’ve gathered so far, I should probably install Mint. He can try Fedora with a live usb or on my laptop. If he prefers that then I can warn him that this may be less stable and ask what he wants.\n
\n
I’ve only tried Ubuntu-based Mint, but LMDE is more future-proof so it will probably be that.
"""
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date: 2023-11-02 16:08:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 84687
} |
|
Show voter details
|
71 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1604
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2701 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Fedora-or-Mint-for-noob"
+title: "Fedora or Mint for noob?"
+url: null
+body: """
A friend might let me install Linux on his secondary laptop he uses for university. He’s not a tinkerer and wants something that just works.\n
\n
Linux Mint is known for being very user-friendly and stable. Also easy to get help online.\n
\n
However, in my opinion Mint seems rather outdated, both with its Windows-like workflow, default icons and look and also Xorg. When I tried it I had some screen stuttering I couldn’t resolve, probably due to Xorg.\n
\n
Instead, Fedora with GNOME is very elegant and always uses the newest technologies. It feels and looks actually nice and not outdated. But I’d have to install media codecs via terminal first which suggests that Fedora is for experienced users. Also university wifi eduroam doesn’t work on Fedora for me because legacy TLS connection is not supported in Fedora (at least I couldn’t get it to work). I’m at a different uni than him tho, so it might work there. In general, less help on the web for Fedora than Mint.\n
\n
What do you think? (Btw, KDE is too convoluted in my opinion. Manjaro too, it breaks too often. I will not consider it.)\n
\n
EDIT: From what I’ve gathered so far, I should probably install Mint. He can try Fedora with a live usb or on my laptop. If he prefers that then I can warn him that this may be less stable and ask what he wants.\n
\n
I’ve only tried Ubuntu-based Mint, but LMDE is more future-proof so it will probably be that.
"""
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date: 2023-11-02 16:08:38.0 +01:00
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} |
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Show voter details
|
72 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1604
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+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "Fedora-or-Mint-for-noob"
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A friend might let me install Linux on his secondary laptop he uses for university. He’s not a tinkerer and wants something that just works.\n
\n
Linux Mint is known for being very user-friendly and stable. Also easy to get help online.\n
\n
However, in my opinion Mint seems rather outdated, both with its Windows-like workflow, default icons and look and also Xorg. When I tried it I had some screen stuttering I couldn’t resolve, probably due to Xorg.\n
\n
Instead, Fedora with GNOME is very elegant and always uses the newest technologies. It feels and looks actually nice and not outdated. But I’d have to install media codecs via terminal first which suggests that Fedora is for experienced users. Also university wifi eduroam doesn’t work on Fedora for me because legacy TLS connection is not supported in Fedora (at least I couldn’t get it to work). I’m at a different uni than him tho, so it might work there. In general, less help on the web for Fedora than Mint.\n
\n
What do you think? (Btw, KDE is too convoluted in my opinion. Manjaro too, it breaks too often. I will not consider it.)\n
\n
EDIT: From what I’ve gathered so far, I should probably install Mint. He can try Fedora with a live usb or on my laptop. If he prefers that then I can warn him that this may be less stable and ask what he wants.\n
\n
I’ve only tried Ubuntu-based Mint, but LMDE is more future-proof so it will probably be that.
"""
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|
Show voter details
|
73 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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74 |
DENIED
|
moderate
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2307
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|
Show voter details
|
75 |
DENIED
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edit
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2307
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|
Show voter details
|
76 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2307
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|
Show voter details
|
77 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
78 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2310
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79 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2310
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80 |
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Show voter details
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81 |
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ROLE_USER
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Show voter details
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82 |
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Show voter details
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83 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2295
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+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701128039 {#2296
date: 2023-11-28 00:33:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 171927
} |
|
Show voter details
|
84 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2295
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2307
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2581 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "what-caused-you-to-get-into-Linux"
+title: "what caused you to get into Linux?"
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date: 2023-12-15 07:32:39.0 +01:00
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2310
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2307 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: "The desire to learn something beyond DOS, beyond just BBS’, beyond RIME and FIDOnet email, wanting a UNIX like operating system that was like what I had at university, to be able to natively run talk, ytalk, IRC, ICB, Gopher, FTP, and NNTP."
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+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-12-06 14:18:37.0 +01:00
}
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"@Altomes@lemm.ee"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2306 …}
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701101713 {#2312
date: 2023-11-27 17:15:13.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 170464
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2295}
]
-id: 17077
-titleTs: "'caus':2 'get':5 'linux':7"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701023883 {#2660
date: 2023-11-26 19:38:03.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2281 …}
+root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2310}
+body: "Ok, see here now… :P"
+lang: "en"
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+lastActive: DateTime @1701128039 {#2290
date: 2023-11-28 00:33:59.0 +01:00
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"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701128039 {#2296
date: 2023-11-28 00:33:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 171927
} |
|
Show voter details
|
85 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
86 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "State-of-the-Nvidia-open-source-driver-in-late-2023"
+title: "State of the Nvidia open source driver in late 2023?"
+url: null
+body: """
Hi all,\n
\n
I’m in the market for a new big desktop replacement gaming laptop, and looking at the market there are almost exclusively Nvidia powered.\n
\n
I was wondering about the state of their new open-source driver. Can I run a plain vanilla kernel with only open source / upstream packages and drivers and expect to get a good experience? How is battery life, performance? Does DRI Prime and Vulkan based GPU selection “just work”?\n
\n
The only alternative new for my market is a device with an Intel Arc A730M, which I currently think is going to be the one I end up buying.\n
\n
**Edit 19/11**: Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Since the reactions were quite mixed - “it works perfectly for me” vs “it’s a unmaintainable mess that breaks all the time”, I’m going to err on the side of caution and look elsewhere. I found a used laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 6700M, which I’m going to check out the coming days. If not, I’ve also found Alienware sells their m16 laptop with an RX 7600M XT, which might be a good buy for me (I currently still rock an Alienware 17R1 from 2013 with an MXM card from a decomissioned industrial computer in it).
"""
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date: 2023-11-19 18:32:35.0 +01:00
}
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2658 …}
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+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2674 …}
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333
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+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
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A few reasons:\n
\n
- There is a strong desire to see if there is secret sauce in the driver that makes their cards so darn performant. Could it be applied to other video drivers?\n
- To audit for vulnerabilities and fix them.\n
- To allow the driver to use some kernel internals that the kernel developers keep trying to wall proprietary drivers off from.\n
- Ideology\n
- Community might be able to hack it to work better with Wayland, since the Wayland team has no interest in extending any kind of support to proprietary driver driving GPU’s… despite x11 working just fine forever. … see Ideology.
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
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"@wim@lemmy.sdf.org"
"@Yerbouti@lemmy.ml"
]
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date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-23 14:44:00.0 +01:00
}
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date: 2023-11-16 10:21:33.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
87 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "State-of-the-Nvidia-open-source-driver-in-late-2023"
+title: "State of the Nvidia open source driver in late 2023?"
+url: null
+body: """
Hi all,\n
\n
I’m in the market for a new big desktop replacement gaming laptop, and looking at the market there are almost exclusively Nvidia powered.\n
\n
I was wondering about the state of their new open-source driver. Can I run a plain vanilla kernel with only open source / upstream packages and drivers and expect to get a good experience? How is battery life, performance? Does DRI Prime and Vulkan based GPU selection “just work”?\n
\n
The only alternative new for my market is a device with an Intel Arc A730M, which I currently think is going to be the one I end up buying.\n
\n
**Edit 19/11**: Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Since the reactions were quite mixed - “it works perfectly for me” vs “it’s a unmaintainable mess that breaks all the time”, I’m going to err on the side of caution and look elsewhere. I found a used laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 6700M, which I’m going to check out the coming days. If not, I’ve also found Alienware sells their m16 laptop with an RX 7600M XT, which might be a good buy for me (I currently still rock an Alienware 17R1 from 2013 with an MXM card from a decomissioned industrial computer in it).
"""
+type: "article"
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date: 2023-11-19 18:32:35.0 +01:00
}
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2658 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2668 …}
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+body: """
A few reasons:\n
\n
- There is a strong desire to see if there is secret sauce in the driver that makes their cards so darn performant. Could it be applied to other video drivers?\n
- To audit for vulnerabilities and fix them.\n
- To allow the driver to use some kernel internals that the kernel developers keep trying to wall proprietary drivers off from.\n
- Ideology\n
- Community might be able to hack it to work better with Wayland, since the Wayland team has no interest in extending any kind of support to proprietary driver driving GPU’s… despite x11 working just fine forever. … see Ideology.
"""
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date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
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"@wim@lemmy.sdf.org"
"@Yerbouti@lemmy.ml"
]
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date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
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}
]
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+ranking: 1700212893
+visibility: "visible "
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+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700747040 {#2578
date: 2023-11-23 14:44:00.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700126493 {#2559
date: 2023-11-16 10:21:33.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
88 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "State-of-the-Nvidia-open-source-driver-in-late-2023"
+title: "State of the Nvidia open source driver in late 2023?"
+url: null
+body: """
Hi all,\n
\n
I’m in the market for a new big desktop replacement gaming laptop, and looking at the market there are almost exclusively Nvidia powered.\n
\n
I was wondering about the state of their new open-source driver. Can I run a plain vanilla kernel with only open source / upstream packages and drivers and expect to get a good experience? How is battery life, performance? Does DRI Prime and Vulkan based GPU selection “just work”?\n
\n
The only alternative new for my market is a device with an Intel Arc A730M, which I currently think is going to be the one I end up buying.\n
\n
**Edit 19/11**: Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Since the reactions were quite mixed - “it works perfectly for me” vs “it’s a unmaintainable mess that breaks all the time”, I’m going to err on the side of caution and look elsewhere. I found a used laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 6700M, which I’m going to check out the coming days. If not, I’ve also found Alienware sells their m16 laptop with an RX 7600M XT, which might be a good buy for me (I currently still rock an Alienware 17R1 from 2013 with an MXM card from a decomissioned industrial computer in it).
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
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+hasEmbed: false
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+score: 0
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+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1700415155 {#2652
date: 2023-11-19 18:32:35.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2658 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2668 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2670 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2672 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2674 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2676 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+body: """
A few reasons:\n
\n
- There is a strong desire to see if there is secret sauce in the driver that makes their cards so darn performant. Could it be applied to other video drivers?\n
- To audit for vulnerabilities and fix them.\n
- To allow the driver to use some kernel internals that the kernel developers keep trying to wall proprietary drivers off from.\n
- Ideology\n
- Community might be able to hack it to work better with Wayland, since the Wayland team has no interest in extending any kind of support to proprietary driver driving GPU’s… despite x11 working just fine forever. … see Ideology.
"""
+lang: "en"
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+lastActive: DateTime @1700249875 {#2327
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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+mentions: [
"@wim@lemmy.sdf.org"
"@Yerbouti@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2300 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5188303"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700249875 {#2329
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134608
}
]
-id: 13481
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+ranking: 1700212893
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/7686599"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700747040 {#2578
date: 2023-11-23 14:44:00.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700126493 {#2559
date: 2023-11-16 10:21:33.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
89 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
90 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "State-of-the-Nvidia-open-source-driver-in-late-2023"
+title: "State of the Nvidia open source driver in late 2023?"
+url: null
+body: """
Hi all,\n
\n
I’m in the market for a new big desktop replacement gaming laptop, and looking at the market there are almost exclusively Nvidia powered.\n
\n
I was wondering about the state of their new open-source driver. Can I run a plain vanilla kernel with only open source / upstream packages and drivers and expect to get a good experience? How is battery life, performance? Does DRI Prime and Vulkan based GPU selection “just work”?\n
\n
The only alternative new for my market is a device with an Intel Arc A730M, which I currently think is going to be the one I end up buying.\n
\n
**Edit 19/11**: Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Since the reactions were quite mixed - “it works perfectly for me” vs “it’s a unmaintainable mess that breaks all the time”, I’m going to err on the side of caution and look elsewhere. I found a used laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 6700M, which I’m going to check out the coming days. If not, I’ve also found Alienware sells their m16 laptop with an RX 7600M XT, which might be a good buy for me (I currently still rock an Alienware 17R1 from 2013 with an MXM card from a decomissioned industrial computer in it).
"""
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date: 2023-11-19 18:32:35.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2658 …}
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+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333}
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-id: 13481
-titleTs: "'2023':10 'driver':7 'late':9 'nvidia':4 'open':5 'sourc':6 'state':1"
-bodyTs: "'17r1':200 '19/11':107 '2013':202 '6700m':159 '7600m':184 'a730m':91 'alienwar':176,199 'almost':23 'also':174 'altern':79 'amd':156 'arc':90 'base':72 'batteri':64 'big':11 'break':132 'buy':105,191 'card':206 'caution':145 'check':165 'come':168 'comput':211 'current':94,195 'day':169 'decomiss':209 'desktop':12 'devic':86 'dri':68 'driver':39,54 'edit':106 'elsewher':148 'end':103 'err':140 'everyon':113 'exclus':24 'expect':56 'experi':61 'feedback':112 'found':150,175 'game':14 'get':58 'go':97,138,163 'good':60,190 'gpu':73 'hi':1 'industri':210 'intel':89 'kernel':46 'laptop':15,153,180 'life':65 'look':17,147 'm':4,137,162 'm16':179 'market':7,20,83 'mess':130 'might':187 'mix':119 'mxm':205 'new':10,35,80 'nvidia':25 'one':101 'open':37,49 'open-sourc':36 'packag':52 'perfect':122 'perform':66 'plain':44 'power':26 'prime':69 'quit':118 'radeon':157 'reaction':116 'replac':13 'rock':197 'run':42 'rx':158,183 'select':74 'sell':177 'side':143 'sinc':114 'sourc':38,50 'state':32 'still':196 'thank':108 'think':95 'time':135 'unmaintain':129 'upstream':51 'use':152 'vanilla':45 've':173 'vs':125 'vulkan':71 'wonder':29 'work':76,121 'xt':185"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1700212893
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/7686599"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700747040 {#2578
date: 2023-11-23 14:44:00.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700126493 {#2559
date: 2023-11-16 10:21:33.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+body: """
A few reasons:\n
\n
- There is a strong desire to see if there is secret sauce in the driver that makes their cards so darn performant. Could it be applied to other video drivers?\n
- To audit for vulnerabilities and fix them.\n
- To allow the driver to use some kernel internals that the kernel developers keep trying to wall proprietary drivers off from.\n
- Ideology\n
- Community might be able to hack it to work better with Wayland, since the Wayland team has no interest in extending any kind of support to proprietary driver driving GPU’s… despite x11 working just fine forever. … see Ideology.
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 2
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700249875 {#2327
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@wim@lemmy.sdf.org"
"@Yerbouti@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2300 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2343 …}
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-id: 134608
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+ranking: 0
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+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700249875 {#2329
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134608
} |
|
Show voter details
|
91 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "State-of-the-Nvidia-open-source-driver-in-late-2023"
+title: "State of the Nvidia open source driver in late 2023?"
+url: null
+body: """
Hi all,\n
\n
I’m in the market for a new big desktop replacement gaming laptop, and looking at the market there are almost exclusively Nvidia powered.\n
\n
I was wondering about the state of their new open-source driver. Can I run a plain vanilla kernel with only open source / upstream packages and drivers and expect to get a good experience? How is battery life, performance? Does DRI Prime and Vulkan based GPU selection “just work”?\n
\n
The only alternative new for my market is a device with an Intel Arc A730M, which I currently think is going to be the one I end up buying.\n
\n
**Edit 19/11**: Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Since the reactions were quite mixed - “it works perfectly for me” vs “it’s a unmaintainable mess that breaks all the time”, I’m going to err on the side of caution and look elsewhere. I found a used laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 6700M, which I’m going to check out the coming days. If not, I’ve also found Alienware sells their m16 laptop with an RX 7600M XT, which might be a good buy for me (I currently still rock an Alienware 17R1 from 2013 with an MXM card from a decomissioned industrial computer in it).
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 44
+favouriteCount: 108
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1700415155 {#2652
date: 2023-11-19 18:32:35.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2658 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2668 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2670 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2672 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2674 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2676 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333}
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-id: 13481
-titleTs: "'2023':10 'driver':7 'late':9 'nvidia':4 'open':5 'sourc':6 'state':1"
-bodyTs: "'17r1':200 '19/11':107 '2013':202 '6700m':159 '7600m':184 'a730m':91 'alienwar':176,199 'almost':23 'also':174 'altern':79 'amd':156 'arc':90 'base':72 'batteri':64 'big':11 'break':132 'buy':105,191 'card':206 'caution':145 'check':165 'come':168 'comput':211 'current':94,195 'day':169 'decomiss':209 'desktop':12 'devic':86 'dri':68 'driver':39,54 'edit':106 'elsewher':148 'end':103 'err':140 'everyon':113 'exclus':24 'expect':56 'experi':61 'feedback':112 'found':150,175 'game':14 'get':58 'go':97,138,163 'good':60,190 'gpu':73 'hi':1 'industri':210 'intel':89 'kernel':46 'laptop':15,153,180 'life':65 'look':17,147 'm':4,137,162 'm16':179 'market':7,20,83 'mess':130 'might':187 'mix':119 'mxm':205 'new':10,35,80 'nvidia':25 'one':101 'open':37,49 'open-sourc':36 'packag':52 'perfect':122 'perform':66 'plain':44 'power':26 'prime':69 'quit':118 'radeon':157 'reaction':116 'replac':13 'rock':197 'run':42 'rx':158,183 'select':74 'sell':177 'side':143 'sinc':114 'sourc':38,50 'state':32 'still':196 'thank':108 'think':95 'time':135 'unmaintain':129 'upstream':51 'use':152 'vanilla':45 've':173 'vs':125 'vulkan':71 'wonder':29 'work':76,121 'xt':185"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1700212893
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/7686599"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700747040 {#2578
date: 2023-11-23 14:44:00.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700126493 {#2559
date: 2023-11-16 10:21:33.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+body: """
A few reasons:\n
\n
- There is a strong desire to see if there is secret sauce in the driver that makes their cards so darn performant. Could it be applied to other video drivers?\n
- To audit for vulnerabilities and fix them.\n
- To allow the driver to use some kernel internals that the kernel developers keep trying to wall proprietary drivers off from.\n
- Ideology\n
- Community might be able to hack it to work better with Wayland, since the Wayland team has no interest in extending any kind of support to proprietary driver driving GPU’s… despite x11 working just fine forever. … see Ideology.
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 2
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700249875 {#2327
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@wim@lemmy.sdf.org"
"@Yerbouti@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2300 …}
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+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
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-id: 134608
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+ranking: 0
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+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5188303"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700249875 {#2329
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134608
} |
|
Show voter details
|
92 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2323
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "State-of-the-Nvidia-open-source-driver-in-late-2023"
+title: "State of the Nvidia open source driver in late 2023?"
+url: null
+body: """
Hi all,\n
\n
I’m in the market for a new big desktop replacement gaming laptop, and looking at the market there are almost exclusively Nvidia powered.\n
\n
I was wondering about the state of their new open-source driver. Can I run a plain vanilla kernel with only open source / upstream packages and drivers and expect to get a good experience? How is battery life, performance? Does DRI Prime and Vulkan based GPU selection “just work”?\n
\n
The only alternative new for my market is a device with an Intel Arc A730M, which I currently think is going to be the one I end up buying.\n
\n
**Edit 19/11**: Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Since the reactions were quite mixed - “it works perfectly for me” vs “it’s a unmaintainable mess that breaks all the time”, I’m going to err on the side of caution and look elsewhere. I found a used laptop with an AMD Radeon RX 6700M, which I’m going to check out the coming days. If not, I’ve also found Alienware sells their m16 laptop with an RX 7600M XT, which might be a good buy for me (I currently still rock an Alienware 17R1 from 2013 with an MXM card from a decomissioned industrial computer in it).
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
+isOc: false
+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 44
+favouriteCount: 108
+score: 0
+isAdult: false
+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1700415155 {#2652
date: 2023-11-19 18:32:35.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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+tags: null
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2658 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2668 …}
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+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2674 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2676 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2333}
]
-id: 13481
-titleTs: "'2023':10 'driver':7 'late':9 'nvidia':4 'open':5 'sourc':6 'state':1"
-bodyTs: "'17r1':200 '19/11':107 '2013':202 '6700m':159 '7600m':184 'a730m':91 'alienwar':176,199 'almost':23 'also':174 'altern':79 'amd':156 'arc':90 'base':72 'batteri':64 'big':11 'break':132 'buy':105,191 'card':206 'caution':145 'check':165 'come':168 'comput':211 'current':94,195 'day':169 'decomiss':209 'desktop':12 'devic':86 'dri':68 'driver':39,54 'edit':106 'elsewher':148 'end':103 'err':140 'everyon':113 'exclus':24 'expect':56 'experi':61 'feedback':112 'found':150,175 'game':14 'get':58 'go':97,138,163 'good':60,190 'gpu':73 'hi':1 'industri':210 'intel':89 'kernel':46 'laptop':15,153,180 'life':65 'look':17,147 'm':4,137,162 'm16':179 'market':7,20,83 'mess':130 'might':187 'mix':119 'mxm':205 'new':10,35,80 'nvidia':25 'one':101 'open':37,49 'open-sourc':36 'packag':52 'perfect':122 'perform':66 'plain':44 'power':26 'prime':69 'quit':118 'radeon':157 'reaction':116 'replac':13 'rock':197 'run':42 'rx':158,183 'select':74 'sell':177 'side':143 'sinc':114 'sourc':38,50 'state':32 'still':196 'thank':108 'think':95 'time':135 'unmaintain':129 'upstream':51 'use':152 'vanilla':45 've':173 'vs':125 'vulkan':71 'wonder':29 'work':76,121 'xt':185"
+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1700212893
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/7686599"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700747040 {#2578
date: 2023-11-23 14:44:00.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700126493 {#2559
date: 2023-11-16 10:21:33.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2324 …}
+body: """
A few reasons:\n
\n
- There is a strong desire to see if there is secret sauce in the driver that makes their cards so darn performant. Could it be applied to other video drivers?\n
- To audit for vulnerabilities and fix them.\n
- To allow the driver to use some kernel internals that the kernel developers keep trying to wall proprietary drivers off from.\n
- Ideology\n
- Community might be able to hack it to work better with Wayland, since the Wayland team has no interest in extending any kind of support to proprietary driver driving GPU’s… despite x11 working just fine forever. … see Ideology.
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 2
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700249875 {#2327
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@wim@lemmy.sdf.org"
"@Yerbouti@lemmy.ml"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2300 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2343 …}
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-id: 134608
-bodyTs: "'abl':66 'allow':42 'appli':29 'audit':35 'better':72 'card':22 'communiti':63 'could':26 'darn':24 'desir':8 'despit':94 'develop':53 'drive':91 'driver':18,33,44,59,90 'extend':83 'fine':98 'fix':39 'forev':99 'gpu':92 'hack':68 'ideolog':62,101 'interest':81 'intern':49 'keep':54 'kernel':48,52 'kind':85 'make':20 'might':64 'perform':25 'proprietari':58,89 'reason':3 'sauc':15 'secret':14 'see':10,100 'sinc':75 'strong':7 'support':87 'team':78 'tri':55 'use':46 'video':32 'vulner':37 'wall':57 'wayland':74,77 'work':71,96 'x11':95"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
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+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5188303"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700249875 {#2329
date: 2023-11-17 20:37:55.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134608
} |
|
Show voter details
|
93 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
94 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2260 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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…2
} |
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edit
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2260 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
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"@bitwolf@lemmy.one"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2215 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2198 …}
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+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2214 …}
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-id: 139083
-bodyTs: "'black':19 'block':35 'box':20,36 'certain':6 'extern':12 'get':18 'kde':23 'laptop':16 'menu':24 'monitor':13 'mous':39 'nvidia':1 'often':34 'screen':32 'shadow':21 'trail':37 'user':2 'well':10 'window':29 'work':9"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
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10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2129 …}
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-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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+"title": 134527
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7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
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-id: 137769
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
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+"title": 137769
}
8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700337296 {#2056
date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 4
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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+"title": 139091
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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-id: 137757
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]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
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+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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-id: 137769
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
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+"title": 137769
}
8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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+body: "Yes."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
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+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
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-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
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+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
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-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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-id: 134536
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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Show voter details
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99 |
DENIED
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edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
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+body: "Yes."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
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-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
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-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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+"title": 139091
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2164 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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]
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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Show voter details
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100 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
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}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133959
}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
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"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2164 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134536
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2065 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
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}
]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 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'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 'multipl':220,1104 'must':1841 'name':715 'necessari':333 'necessarili':303 'need':314 'net':1555 'netwm/ewmh':1942 'new':255,381 'next':719 'nomachin':1608 'non':650 'non-gnom':649 'normal':916 'notic':1473 'noveau':1029 'nvidia':1003 'nx':1609 'ob':484,516 'obscur':1545 'offer':879 'offload':192 'often':352 'oftentim':310 'okay':1497 'one':256,672,1133,1165,1228,1474,1567 'open':547,1073 'openbox':1461 'openbsd':1197 'opinion':1044 'other':1199 'outdat':10,521 'page':1615 'pantheon':1414 'part':203 'pass':946 'peopl':35,1686 'perfect':496 'perform':237,1775,1779 'person':564,594 'plagu':187 'plasma':358,1875 'pleas':782,1994,1995 'plugin':799,804,824 'point':93,95,1108,1612,1682,1708,1723 'pointless':585,632 'posit':1869 'post':13,595 'prefer':2013 'present':903 'prevent':1125,1668 'probabl':418,779,1337 'problem':658,806,952 'program':841 'project':165,480,748,1531,1881 'proper':1001,1050 'proprietari':1026 'protocol':160,209,1253,1560 'proven':892 'pureo':573 'put':75,604,634 'qt':798 'qtile':1432 'quit':491,520,2006 'quot':809,870,1370 'raising/activating':1234 'randr':294,1351 're':1294,1665,1794 'read':556,626 'readi':349 'realis':401 'realli':262 'reason':51,1095,1833 'recent':1412 'record':364,370,512 'redshift':837,872,894 'releas':992,1622 'remain':1171 'rememb':713,1835 'replac':1458,1801 'requir':468,1357,1397 'rescuetim':1277,1279 'resolv':1245,1716 'respons':1976 'restrict':607,633 'rhat':1906 'robertson':506 'root':1131 'rumour':1042 'run':110,222,829,1129 'safe':773 'said':1493,1639,1962 'screen':363,369,524 'screensav':1856 'screenshar':609 'secur':923 'see':139,176,833,1721,2002 'seem':539,958,1114,1156,1181,1242,1520,1706,1859,1945,1956 'server':118,1202 'set':158,1866 'setter':867 'shame':1488 'share':525 'sheer':1390 'ship':795,802,820 'show':530 'side':1087,1203 'simultan':223 'sinc':877 'sire':463 'skip':1558 'skiptaskbar':1595 'small':1543 'smaller':479 'softwar':327,676 'solut':328,346,937,1146 'solv':807,953,1621,1633 'someon':1499 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've':1018,1077,1208 'version':1624 'video':514 'vsync':1753 'wallpap':866 'want':43,419,1437 'way':217,881,1516,1711 'way-cool':1515 'waybox':1469 'wayland':56,96,155,273,361,377,379,402,423,489,522,536,624,673,692,760,789,835,850,876,898,969,988,997,1046,1120,1124,1147,1185,1200,1231,1275,1288,1297,1323,1356,1387,1429,1553,1606,1634,1653,1661,1663,1700,1724,1743,1763,1784,1814,1840,1854,1864,1888,1900,1926,1940,1950 'well':226,750,1031,1787,1817 'wiki.xfce.org':995 'wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':994 'window':105,119,137,196,230,1233,1290,1309,1430,1868,1952 'wine':1761 'wip':1252,1873 'without':69 'wl':1698 'wl-clipboard':1697 'wlr':293,1350 'wlr-randr':292,1349 'wlroot':290,1355 'wm':1359,1556 'wms':1378,1478 'work':66,193,271,276,297,304,466,487,534,541,578,613,621,687,848,854,972,1000,1030,1040,1049,1321,1420,1424,1651,1659,1837,1898 'workaround':817 'woukd':1259 'would':64,1093,1495,2018 'wouldn':260,1523,1657 'write':1393 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}
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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} |
|
Show voter details
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103 |
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edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2260 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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Show voter details
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DENIED
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2139 …}
+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
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"@bitwolf@lemmy.one"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2215 …}
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-id: 139083
-bodyTs: "'black':19 'block':35 'box':20,36 'certain':6 'extern':12 'get':18 'kde':23 'laptop':16 'menu':24 'monitor':13 'mous':39 'nvidia':1 'often':34 'screen':32 'shadow':21 'trail':37 'user':2 'well':10 'window':29 'work':9"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139083
}
10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2129 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2132 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
-id: 134527
-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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+"title": 134527
}
7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099}
8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
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+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700337296 {#2056
date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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+mentions: [
"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133959
}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2164 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134536
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2065 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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Show voter details
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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-id: 134527
-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134527
}
7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099}
8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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+"title": 133975
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
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+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
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-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
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-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
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+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
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-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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]
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-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
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+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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Show voter details
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108 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+"title": 133975
}
5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 6
+score: 0
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241128 {#2392
date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133959
}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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+score: 0
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700372977 {#2228
date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700352398 {#2117
date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2164 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700248859 {#2347
date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134536
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700337170 {#2143
date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2065 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
+ranking: 0
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700337170 {#2135
date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137757
}
]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 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'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 'multipl':220,1104 'must':1841 'name':715 'necessari':333 'necessarili':303 'need':314 'net':1555 'netwm/ewmh':1942 'new':255,381 'next':719 'nomachin':1608 'non':650 'non-gnom':649 'normal':916 'notic':1473 'noveau':1029 'nvidia':1003 'nx':1609 'ob':484,516 'obscur':1545 'offer':879 'offload':192 'often':352 'oftentim':310 'okay':1497 'one':256,672,1133,1165,1228,1474,1567 'open':547,1073 'openbox':1461 'openbsd':1197 'opinion':1044 'other':1199 'outdat':10,521 'page':1615 'pantheon':1414 'part':203 'pass':946 'peopl':35,1686 'perfect':496 'perform':237,1775,1779 'person':564,594 'plagu':187 'plasma':358,1875 'pleas':782,1994,1995 'plugin':799,804,824 'point':93,95,1108,1612,1682,1708,1723 'pointless':585,632 'posit':1869 'post':13,595 'prefer':2013 'present':903 'prevent':1125,1668 'probabl':418,779,1337 'problem':658,806,952 'program':841 'project':165,480,748,1531,1881 'proper':1001,1050 'proprietari':1026 'protocol':160,209,1253,1560 'proven':892 'pureo':573 'put':75,604,634 'qt':798 'qtile':1432 'quit':491,520,2006 'quot':809,870,1370 'raising/activating':1234 'randr':294,1351 're':1294,1665,1794 'read':556,626 'readi':349 'realis':401 'realli':262 'reason':51,1095,1833 'recent':1412 'record':364,370,512 'redshift':837,872,894 'releas':992,1622 'remain':1171 'rememb':713,1835 'replac':1458,1801 'requir':468,1357,1397 'rescuetim':1277,1279 'resolv':1245,1716 'respons':1976 'restrict':607,633 'rhat':1906 'robertson':506 'root':1131 'rumour':1042 'run':110,222,829,1129 'safe':773 'said':1493,1639,1962 'screen':363,369,524 'screensav':1856 'screenshar':609 'secur':923 'see':139,176,833,1721,2002 'seem':539,958,1114,1156,1181,1242,1520,1706,1859,1945,1956 'server':118,1202 'set':158,1866 'setter':867 'shame':1488 'share':525 'sheer':1390 'ship':795,802,820 'show':530 'side':1087,1203 'simultan':223 'sinc':877 'sire':463 'skip':1558 'skiptaskbar':1595 'small':1543 'smaller':479 'softwar':327,676 'solut':328,346,937,1146 'solv':807,953,1621,1633 'someon':1499 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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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|
Show voter details
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111 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
}
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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-id: 133975
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} |
|
Show voter details
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moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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-id: 133975
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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Show voter details
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2215 …}
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-bodyTs: "'black':19 'block':35 'box':20,36 'certain':6 'extern':12 'get':18 'kde':23 'laptop':16 'menu':24 'monitor':13 'mous':39 'nvidia':1 'often':34 'screen':32 'shadow':21 'trail':37 'user':2 'well':10 'window':29 'work':9"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
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10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
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-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
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+"title": 137769
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8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
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-id: 133975
-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
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-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
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+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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]
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Show voter details
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139083
}
10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2129 …}
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-id: 134527
-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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+"title": 134527
}
7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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-bodyTs: "'distro':6 'experi':18 'includ':12 'm':2 'pretti':3 'set':7 'sure':4 'transpar':21 'wayland':9 'waypip':13"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
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+"title": 137769
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8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
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-id: 133975
-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133975
}
5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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+"title": 139091
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2164 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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]
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133975
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
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+body: "Yes."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
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-id: 137765
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
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+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
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-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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]
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-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
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+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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Show voter details
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119 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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]
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+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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Show voter details
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120 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
}
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…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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-id: 133961
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2260 …}
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+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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Show voter details
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123 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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Show voter details
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
+lang: "en"
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"@bitwolf@lemmy.one"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2215 …}
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-id: 139083
-bodyTs: "'black':19 'block':35 'box':20,36 'certain':6 'extern':12 'get':18 'kde':23 'laptop':16 'menu':24 'monitor':13 'mous':39 'nvidia':1 'often':34 'screen':32 'shadow':21 'trail':37 'user':2 'well':10 'window':29 'work':9"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
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10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2129 …}
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-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
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8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
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-id: 133975
-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
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+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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]
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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-id: 134527
-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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+"title": 134527
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7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
+lang: "en"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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-id: 137769
-bodyTs: "'distro':6 'experi':18 'includ':12 'm':2 'pretti':3 'set':7 'sure':4 'transpar':21 'wayland':9 'waypip':13"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137769
}
8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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+"title": 133975
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
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-id: 133959
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
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-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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]
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Show voter details
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127 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
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-id: 133975
-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133975
}
5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 4
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5184545"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133959
}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700352398 {#2117
date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 3
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2141 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2164 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
-id: 134536
-bodyTs: "'agre':17 'around':6 'call':7 'run':5 'seem':15 'xorg':9 'xrandr':8"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700248859 {#2347
date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134536
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700337170 {#2143
date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2065 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
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]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 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'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 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+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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Show voter details
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128 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
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-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
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-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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-id: 134536
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
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'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 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'multipl':220,1104 'must':1841 'name':715 'necessari':333 'necessarili':303 'need':314 'net':1555 'netwm/ewmh':1942 'new':255,381 'next':719 'nomachin':1608 'non':650 'non-gnom':649 'normal':916 'notic':1473 'noveau':1029 'nvidia':1003 'nx':1609 'ob':484,516 'obscur':1545 'offer':879 'offload':192 'often':352 'oftentim':310 'okay':1497 'one':256,672,1133,1165,1228,1474,1567 'open':547,1073 'openbox':1461 'openbsd':1197 'opinion':1044 'other':1199 'outdat':10,521 'page':1615 'pantheon':1414 'part':203 'pass':946 'peopl':35,1686 'perfect':496 'perform':237,1775,1779 'person':564,594 'plagu':187 'plasma':358,1875 'pleas':782,1994,1995 'plugin':799,804,824 'point':93,95,1108,1612,1682,1708,1723 'pointless':585,632 'posit':1869 'post':13,595 'prefer':2013 'present':903 'prevent':1125,1668 'probabl':418,779,1337 'problem':658,806,952 'program':841 'project':165,480,748,1531,1881 'proper':1001,1050 'proprietari':1026 'protocol':160,209,1253,1560 'proven':892 'pureo':573 'put':75,604,634 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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
}
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…2
}
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+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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-id: 139091
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+"title": 139091
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
}
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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} |
|
Show voter details
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131 |
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edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2260 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2139 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2139 …}
+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 1
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@bitwolf@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2215 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2198 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2227 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2214 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2225 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2231 …}
-id: 139083
-bodyTs: "'black':19 'block':35 'box':20,36 'certain':6 'extern':12 'get':18 'kde':23 'laptop':16 'menu':24 'monitor':13 'mous':39 'nvidia':1 'often':34 'screen':32 'shadow':21 'trail':37 'user':2 'well':10 'window':29 'work':9"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139083
}
10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 1
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2129 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2132 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
-id: 134527
-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5187818"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700248765 {#2094
date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134527
}
7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
-id: 137769
-bodyTs: "'distro':6 'experi':18 'includ':12 'm':2 'pretti':3 'set':7 'sure':4 'transpar':21 'wayland':9 'waypip':13"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137769
}
8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2037 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2078 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2097 …}
-id: 133975
-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241408 {#2013
date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133975
}
5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
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+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700337296 {#2056
date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 4
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700241184 {#1403
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
+ranking: 0
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+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5184545"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 6
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700241128 {#2387
date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
+mentions: [
"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
+ranking: 0
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+apId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5184527"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241128 {#2392
date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133959
}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1700372977 {#2229
date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
+tags: null
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700372977 {#2228
date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
+score: 0
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2065 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
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-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
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}
]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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Show voter details
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700372601 {#2126
date: 2023-11-19 06:43:21.0 +01:00
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+"title": 139083
}
10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2241
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2140 …}
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+body: "I most certainly am. :)"
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2130 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2129 …}
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-id: 134527
-bodyTs: "'certain':3"
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date: 2023-11-17 20:19:25.0 +01:00
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7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2099
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2105 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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-id: 137769
-bodyTs: "'distro':6 'experi':18 'includ':12 'm':2 'pretti':3 'set':7 'sure':4 'transpar':21 'wayland':9 'waypip':13"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
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8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
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+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
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-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
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+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
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"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
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-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
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-id: 139091
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
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-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
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}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
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]
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+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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Show voter details
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136 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "I’m pretty sure any distro setting up Wayland will be including Waypipe for you so your experience should be transparent."
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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-id: 137769
-bodyTs: "'distro':6 'experi':18 'includ':12 'm':2 'pretti':3 'set':7 'sure':4 'transpar':21 'wayland':9 'waypip':13"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:56:32.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137769
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8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2031 …}
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-id: 133975
-bodyTs: "'4k':20 '5':32 'artifact':28 'black':24 'command':37 'coupl':34 'cube':25 'dual':1 'either':46 'fine':8 'get':23 'help':45 'intel':6 'kde':30 'kernel':36 'like':27 'line':38 'modul':42 'monitor':2,21 'option':39 'plasma':31 'plug':17 'screen':11 'shadow':26 'singl':10 'soon':14 'wayland':3 'work':7"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133975
}
5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Yes."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2057 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2055 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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-id: 137765
-bodyTs: "'yes':1"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137765
}
6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 4
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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"@waspentalive@lemmy.one"
"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2024 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2018 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2011 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2021 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700241184 {#2019
date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133961
}
4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "No. Wayland does not. That’s why Waypipe was made to address that shortcoming."
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
-id: 133959
-bodyTs: "'address':12 'made':10 'shortcom':14 'wayland':2 'waypip':8"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:12:08.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 133959
}
3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2189 …}
+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
"@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2299 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2298 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2291 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
-id: 139091
-bodyTs: "'myth':4 'pleas':5 'spread':7 'stop':6"
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date: 2023-11-19 06:49:37.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139091
}
2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2122 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 0
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+ip: null
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
"@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2163 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2044 …}
-id: 138477
-bodyTs: "'admit':22 'consid':17 'figur':4 'jealous':27 'littl':26 'lucki':20 'modeset':8 'nah':12 'none':15 'option':10 'quit':19 'style':9 'thank':1"
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date: 2023-11-19 01:06:38.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2137 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2035 …}
+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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-id: 137757
-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
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}
]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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date: 2023-11-17 18:16:48.0 +01:00
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5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2059
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2046 …}
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2047 …}
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-id: 137765
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date: 2023-11-18 20:54:56.0 +01:00
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6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
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-id: 133961
-bodyTs: "'confus':21 'creat':17 'nativ':8 'one':26 'pleas':18 'support':9 'thing':27 'two':23 'wayland':4,5 'waypip':1,15 'workflow':11"
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date: 2023-11-17 18:13:04.0 +01:00
}
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4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2344 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136}
]
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-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
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+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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|
Show voter details
|
139 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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+body: "Dual monitor? Wayland on my intel works fine for single screen, but as soon as I plug in a 4k monitor, it gets black cube shadow like artifacts in KDE Plasma 5. A couple of kernel command line options for the module has not helped, either."
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+body: "Waypipe is not Wayland. Wayland does not natively support this workflow, which is why Waypipe was created. Please don’t confuse the two as being one thing."
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3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2252
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+body: "That is a myth! Please stop spreading it."
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"@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
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2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2121
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+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395 …2}
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+body: "Thank you. I figured there be some modeset style options, but nah, you have none. I consider you quite lucky and admit to being a little jealous. :)"
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+"title": 138477
}
1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2332
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+body: "And we don’t run around calling Xrandr Xorg, do we? No. So we seem to agree."
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"@loutr@sh.itjust.works"
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]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
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date: 2023-11-17 20:20:59.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 134536
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136}
]
-id: 13812
-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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"@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social"
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-bodyTs: "'assum':12 'doesn':14 'grub':11 'kernel':7 'line':9 'love':3 'option':8 'pleas':21 'secret':18 'see':5 'would':2"
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date: 2023-11-18 20:52:50.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 137757
} |
|
Show voter details
|
140 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2395
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2260 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1550 …}
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+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2614 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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+body: "NVidia user here, it most certainly is not working well. My external monitor for my laptop is getting black boxes shadowing the kde menu and most of my windows on that screen, and often block boxes trailing the mouse."
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2136}
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-titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
-bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 'fix':781,1101,1260,1274 'follow':368,1265 'forese':1175 'freebsd':26,68,1188 'full':18 'function':1366 'futur':1176 'game':1745 'gamer':1759 'gammastep':897 'gave':481 'get':12,910,1008,1765 'gist.github.com':4,7 'gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':6 'github.com':1604 'github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1603 'given':1388 'global':729,743,900,911 'gnome':286,543,615,651,726,733,1219,1404 'go':89 'got':1991 'graphic':472 'great':800 'guess':1161,1335,1629 'gui':1126 'guy':22 'happen':342,1670,1674 'hardwar':1004,1053,1123 'heard':710,1019,1078,1209 'hire':1439 'home':1930 'hope':1772 'hotkey':901,912 'howev':329,813 'hyprland':509,906,926 'i3':1452 'icewm':1539 'icon':1953 'ignor':1578 'implement':167,214,221,317,336,935,961,1362 'improv':1082 'in-hom':1928 'incred':757 'instert':1358 'integr':227 'intel':1052,1070,1086,1105,1122 'intend':1384 'introduc':987 'irrespons':398 'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 'multipl':220,1104 'must':1841 'name':715 'necessari':333 'necessarili':303 'need':314 'net':1555 'netwm/ewmh':1942 'new':255,381 'next':719 'nomachin':1608 'non':650 'non-gnom':649 'normal':916 'notic':1473 'noveau':1029 'nvidia':1003 'nx':1609 'ob':484,516 'obscur':1545 'offer':879 'offload':192 'often':352 'oftentim':310 'okay':1497 'one':256,672,1133,1165,1228,1474,1567 'open':547,1073 'openbox':1461 'openbsd':1197 'opinion':1044 'other':1199 'outdat':10,521 'page':1615 'pantheon':1414 'part':203 'pass':946 'peopl':35,1686 'perfect':496 'perform':237,1775,1779 'person':564,594 'plagu':187 'plasma':358,1875 'pleas':782,1994,1995 'plugin':799,804,824 'point':93,95,1108,1612,1682,1708,1723 'pointless':585,632 'posit':1869 'post':13,595 'prefer':2013 'present':903 'prevent':1125,1668 'probabl':418,779,1337 'problem':658,806,952 'program':841 'project':165,480,748,1531,1881 'proper':1001,1050 'proprietari':1026 'protocol':160,209,1253,1560 'proven':892 'pureo':573 'put':75,604,634 'qt':798 'qtile':1432 'quit':491,520,2006 'quot':809,870,1370 'raising/activating':1234 'randr':294,1351 're':1294,1665,1794 'read':556,626 'readi':349 'realis':401 'realli':262 'reason':51,1095,1833 'recent':1412 'record':364,370,512 'redshift':837,872,894 'releas':992,1622 'remain':1171 'rememb':713,1835 'replac':1458,1801 'requir':468,1357,1397 'rescuetim':1277,1279 'resolv':1245,1716 'respons':1976 'restrict':607,633 'rhat':1906 'robertson':506 'root':1131 'rumour':1042 'run':110,222,829,1129 'safe':773 'said':1493,1639,1962 'screen':363,369,524 'screensav':1856 'screenshar':609 'secur':923 'see':139,176,833,1721,2002 'seem':539,958,1114,1156,1181,1242,1520,1706,1859,1945,1956 'server':118,1202 'set':158,1866 'setter':867 'shame':1488 'share':525 'sheer':1390 'ship':795,802,820 'show':530 'side':1087,1203 'simultan':223 'sinc':877 'sire':463 'skip':1558 'skiptaskbar':1595 'small':1543 'smaller':479 'softwar':327,676 'solut':328,346,937,1146 'solv':807,953,1621,1633 'someon':1499 'someth':1214 'sometim':330 'soon':1769 'sort':458 'sourc':1074 'special':797 'specif':83,284,288 'spiritu':1448,1464 'stabl':426,758 'stand':1376 'start':1419,1423 'state':567,598,678,1224,1557 'still':1574 'stop':932 'stori':19 'stream':1931 'streamlin':326 'structur':206 'subpar':1774 'successor':1449,1465 'sudo':1702 'suffer':245 'support':376,875,989,1386,1399,1428,1924 'sure':46,422,1327,1749,1806,1877 'sway':1460 'take':107,1500 'task':1306 'taskbar':1559 'team':639 'temperatur':861,886 'term':443 'test':647 'thing':133,1089 'think':500,770,1091,1226,1270 'though':1830 'thus':178,233 'time':16,126,1256 'tool':1285,1302,1314 'topic':1733,1915,1988 'toward':1150 'tri':31,1666 'trivial':148 'true':308,890,1168,1195,1212,1230,1884,1939 'twm':1537 'understand':1912 'understood':476 'unfortun':954 'univers':345 'unless':280 'unmaintain':183 'unsupport':1599 'updat':529 'use':39,79,508,515,620,697,746,1034,1057,1971 'user':1106 'usual':341 'valid':1157,1741 'various':1305 've':1018,1077,1208 'version':1624 'video':514 'vsync':1753 'wallpap':866 'want':43,419,1437 'way':217,881,1516,1711 'way-cool':1515 'waybox':1469 'wayland':56,96,155,273,361,377,379,402,423,489,522,536,624,673,692,760,789,835,850,876,898,969,988,997,1046,1120,1124,1147,1185,1200,1231,1275,1288,1297,1323,1356,1387,1429,1553,1606,1634,1653,1661,1663,1700,1724,1743,1763,1784,1814,1840,1854,1864,1888,1900,1926,1940,1950 'well':226,750,1031,1787,1817 'wiki.xfce.org':995 'wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':994 'window':105,119,137,196,230,1233,1290,1309,1430,1868,1952 'wine':1761 'wip':1252,1873 'without':69 'wl':1698 'wl-clipboard':1697 'wlr':293,1350 'wlr-randr':292,1349 'wlroot':290,1355 'wm':1359,1556 'wms':1378,1478 'work':66,193,271,276,297,304,466,487,534,541,578,613,621,687,848,854,972,1000,1030,1040,1049,1321,1420,1424,1651,1659,1837,1898 'workaround':817 'woukd':1259 'would':64,1093,1495,2018 'wouldn':260,1523,1657 'write':1393 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…2
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+body: "I would love to see your kernel options line from grub, assuming it doesn’t have any secrets in it. Please."
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