GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@yogthos@lemmy.ml/top/2023-10-21::2023-10-21

Components

21 Twig Components
81 Render Count
113 ms Render Time
12.0 MiB Memory Usage

Components

Name Metadata Render Count Render Time
settings_row_switch
"App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent"
components/_settings_row_switch.html.twig
15 2.41ms
date
"App\Twig\Components\DateComponent"
components/date.html.twig
8 1.62ms
user_avatar
"App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent"
components/user_avatar.html.twig
7 5.33ms
user_inline
"App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent"
components/user_inline.html.twig
7 2.22ms
date_edited
"App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent"
components/date_edited.html.twig
7 1.09ms
vote
"App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent"
components/vote.html.twig
7 4.38ms
boost
"App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent"
components/boost.html.twig
7 10.66ms
entry_comment
"App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent"
components/entry_comment.html.twig
6 84.27ms
user_settings_row_switch
"App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent"
components/_user_settings_row_switch.html.twig
4 0.70ms
settings_row_enum
"App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent"
components/_settings_row_enum.html.twig
2 0.37ms
user_box
"App\Twig\Components\UserBoxComponent"
components/user_box.html.twig
1 3.16ms
user_actions
"App\Twig\Components\UserActionsComponent"
components/user_actions.html.twig
1 1.16ms
entry
"App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 14.22ms
magazine_inline
"App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent"
components/magazine_inline.html.twig
1 0.27ms
related_magazines
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedMagazinesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 1.95ms
active_users
"App\Twig\Components\ActiveUsersComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 0.25ms
related_categories
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedCategoriesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 1.32ms
related_posts
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedPostsComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 1.76ms
related_entries
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedEntriesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 1.58ms
support_us_block
"App\Twig\Components\SupportUsBlock"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 0.21ms
featured_magazines
"App\Twig\Components\FeaturedMagazinesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig
1 0.86ms

Render calls

user_box App\Twig\Components\UserBoxComponent 12.0 MiB 3.16 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "stretchedLink" => false
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserBoxComponent {#2122
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +stretchedLink: false
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.47 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 100
  "height" => 100
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#1988
  +width: 100
  +height: 100
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: false
}
user_actions App\Twig\Components\UserActionsComponent 12.0 MiB 1.16 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserActionsComponent {#2502
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
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entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 12.0 MiB 14.22 ms
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        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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       …2
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1641
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          Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
          \n
          Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
          """
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        +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1616
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        +body: """
          > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
          \n
          What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
          \n
          > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
          \n
          > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
          \n
          And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
          \n
          > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
          \n
          > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
          \n
          > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
          \n
          And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
          \n
          As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
          \n
          We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
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        +body: """
          US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
          \n
          > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
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        +body: """
          No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
          \n
          > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
          \n
          > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
          \n
          That’s not what exploitation is.\n
          \n
          > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
          \n
          > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
          \n
          The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
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        +body: """
          > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
          \n
          > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
          \n
          > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
          \n
          > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
          \n
          I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
          """
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          Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
          \n
          Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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        +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
          \n
          What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
          \n
          > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
          \n
          > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
          \n
          And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
          \n
          > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
          \n
          > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
          \n
          > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
          \n
          And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
          \n
          As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
          \n
          We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
          """
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          US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
          \n
          > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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          No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
          \n
          > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
          \n
          > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
          \n
          That’s not what exploitation is.\n
          \n
          > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
          \n
          > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
          \n
          The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:15:28.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
        +image: null
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          > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
          \n
          > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
          \n
          > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
          \n
          > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
          \n
          I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
          """
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2455 …}
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     …2
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user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.29 ms
Input props
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date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.48 ms
Input props
[
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    date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#4305
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date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.21 ms
Input props
[
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Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#4369
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magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.27 ms
Input props
[
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[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#4434
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     …2
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vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.63 ms
Input props
[
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          Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
          \n
          Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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        +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
          \n
          What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
          \n
          > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
          \n
          > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
          \n
          And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
          \n
          > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
          \n
          > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
          \n
          > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
          \n
          And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
          \n
          As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
          \n
          We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
          """
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          US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
          \n
          > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 19:09:39.0 +02:00
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          No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
          \n
          > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
          \n
          > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
          \n
          That’s not what exploitation is.\n
          \n
          > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
          \n
          > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
          \n
          The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
          """
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          > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
          \n
          > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
          \n
          > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
          \n
          > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
          \n
          I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
          """
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          Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
          \n
          Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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        +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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        +body: """
          > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
          \n
          What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
          \n
          > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
          \n
          > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
          \n
          And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
          \n
          > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
          \n
          > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
          \n
          > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
          \n
          And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
          \n
          As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
          \n
          We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
          """
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          US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
          \n
          > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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        +body: """
          No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
          \n
          > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
          \n
          > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
          \n
          That’s not what exploitation is.\n
          \n
          > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
          \n
          > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
          \n
          The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
          """
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          > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
          \n
          > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
          \n
          > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
          \n
          > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
          \n
          I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
          """
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          Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
          \n
          Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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        +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
          \n
          What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
          \n
          > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
          \n
          > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
          \n
          And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
          \n
          > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
          \n
          > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
          \n
          > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
          \n
          And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
          \n
          As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
          \n
          We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
          """
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          US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
          \n
          > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
          """
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        +body: """
          No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
          \n
          > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
          \n
          > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
          \n
          That’s not what exploitation is.\n
          \n
          > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
          \n
          > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
          \n
          The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
          """
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          > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
          \n
          > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
          \n
          > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
          \n
          > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
          \n
          I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
          """
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          Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
          \n
          Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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        +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
          \n
          What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
          \n
          > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
          \n
          > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
          \n
          And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
          \n
          > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
          \n
          > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
          \n
          > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
          \n
          And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
          \n
          As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
          \n
          We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
          """
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          US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
          \n
          > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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          No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
          \n
          > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
          \n
          > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
          \n
          > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
          \n
          That’s not what exploitation is.\n
          \n
          > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
          \n
          > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
          \n
          The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
          \n
          Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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          > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
          \n
          > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
          \n
          > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
          \n
          > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
          \n
          I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
          """
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1616
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          +body: """
            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
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            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
      \n
      Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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      Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
      \n
      Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
      """
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    -bodyTs: "'actual':60 'aren':90 'aris':70 'build':44 'built':26 'capit':29 'capitalist':20 'class':10,31,41 'communist':2,16,36,89 'distinguish':3 'histori':62 'hold':12 'improv':98 'interest':35,52 'machin':7,48 'organ':69,83 'outcompet':84 'own':30 'polit':74 'possibl':104 'power':13 'practic':97 'problem':15 'realm':101 'regardless':71 'see':65 'serv':50 'societi':77 'sort':81 'state':6,21,47,67 'studi':61 'style':68 'system':75 'tangibl':95 'think':37 'uptopian':92 'use':79 'want':94 'work':40 'worker':55 'yes':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5083947"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697884195 {#1606
      date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
    }
    +"title": 62738
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 1.17 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#4940
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.22 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1697884195 {#1606
    date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#4996
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1697884195 {#1606
    date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1697884195 {#1606
    date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#5050
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697884195 {#1606
    date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.31 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#5104
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.49 ms
Input props
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1641
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
        date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
      -id: 8003
      -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
      +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
        date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
        date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#4162 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
      +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          +body: """
            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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      Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
      \n
      Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458
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          +body: """
            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
      \n
      Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
      """
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boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 4.25 ms
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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      Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
      \n
      Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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          +body: """
            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
      \n
      Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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    +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#5545
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1697884282 {#1596
    date: 2023-10-21 12:31:22.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#5601
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1697884282 {#1596
    date: 2023-10-21 12:31:22.0 +02:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1697884282 {#1596
    date: 2023-10-21 12:31:22.0 +02:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#5655
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697884282 {#1596
    date: 2023-10-21 12:31:22.0 +02:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 3.55 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#5709
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
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    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 1.56 ms
Input props
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
        date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
      -id: 8003
      -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
      +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
        date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
        date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#4162 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#4159
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4163 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4165 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4167 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4169 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4171 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4173 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4179 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4187 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4200 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4210 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4192 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4216 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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      +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
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            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
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            date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
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          +body: """
            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
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    +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
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boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 1.62 ms
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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    +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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          +body: """
            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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    +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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          +body: """
            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
      \n
      Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
      \n
      What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
      \n
      > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
      \n
      A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
      \n
      > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
      \n
      What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
      \n
      And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
      \n
      > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
      \n
      You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
      \n
      > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
      \n
      It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
      \n
      > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
      \n
      And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
      \n
      As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
      \n
      We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
      \n
      Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
      \n
      What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
      \n
      > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
      \n
      A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
      \n
      > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
      \n
      What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
      \n
      And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
      \n
      > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
      \n
      You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
      \n
      > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
      \n
      It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
      \n
      > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
      \n
      And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
      \n
      As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
      \n
      We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
      """
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    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#6132
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.24 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1697885305 {#1711
    date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#6188
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1697885305 {#1711
    date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.29 ms
Input props
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1697885305 {#1711
    date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#6242
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697885305 {#1711
    date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.40 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#6296
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.57 ms
Input props
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1616
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
        date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
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      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
      -id: 8003
      -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
      +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
        date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
        date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#4162 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
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        +rules: null
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        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#4159
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4163 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4165 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4167 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4169 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4171 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4173 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4179 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4187 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4200 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4210 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4192 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4216 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#4160
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#4161
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2314 …}
      +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
      +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
            """
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
      \n
      Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
      \n
      What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
      \n
      > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
      \n
      A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
      \n
      > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
      \n
      What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
      \n
      And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
      \n
      > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
      \n
      You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
      \n
      > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
      \n
      It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
      \n
      > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
      \n
      And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
      \n
      As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
      \n
      We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
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            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
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            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
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            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
      \n
      Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
      \n
      What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
      \n
      > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
      \n
      A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
      \n
      > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
      \n
      What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
      \n
      And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
      \n
      > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
      \n
      You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
      \n
      > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
      \n
      It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
      \n
      > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
      \n
      And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
      \n
      As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
      \n
      We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
      \n
      Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
      \n
      What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
      \n
      > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
      \n
      A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
      \n
      > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
      \n
      What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
      \n
      And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
      \n
      > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
      \n
      You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
      \n
      > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
      \n
      It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
      \n
      > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
      \n
      And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
      \n
      As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
      \n
      We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
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            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
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            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
      \n
      Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
      \n
      What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
      \n
      > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
      \n
      A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
      \n
      > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
      \n
      What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
      \n
      And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
      \n
      > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
      \n
      You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
      \n
      > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
      \n
      It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
      \n
      > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
      \n
      And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
      \n
      As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
      \n
      We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
      \n
      > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          +body: """
            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721}
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
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      US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
      \n
      > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
      """
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Component
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#6791
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
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    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
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    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
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    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1697908179 {#1722
    date: 2023-10-21 19:09:39.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#6847
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1697908179 {#1722
    date: 2023-10-21 19:09:39.0 +02:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1697908179 {#1722
    date: 2023-10-21 19:09:39.0 +02:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#6901
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697908179 {#1722
    date: 2023-10-21 19:09:39.0 +02:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.18 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
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    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
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    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
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    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
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    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
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      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
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      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#6955
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
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    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
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    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
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      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
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  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.39 ms
Input props
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
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      +roles: []
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        date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
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      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
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      +privateKey: null
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      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
        date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
        date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#4162 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4173 …}
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        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4200 …}
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        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4192 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4216 …}
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        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#4161
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2314 …}
      +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
      +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2060 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2068 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2059 …}
      +children: [
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1641
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1589 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1593 …}
          +body: """
            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
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            "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
            "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
            "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1592 …}
          +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1552 …}
          +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1663 …}
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          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1562 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1548 …}
          -id: 62738
          -bodyTs: "'actual':60 'aren':90 'aris':70 'build':44 'built':26 'capit':29 'capitalist':20 'class':10,31,41 'communist':2,16,36,89 'distinguish':3 'histori':62 'hold':12 'improv':98 'interest':35,52 'machin':7,48 'organ':69,83 'outcompet':84 'own':30 'polit':74 'possibl':104 'power':13 'practic':97 'problem':15 'realm':101 'regardless':71 'see':65 'serv':50 'societi':77 'sort':81 'state':6,21,47,67 'studi':61 'style':68 'system':75 'tangibl':95 'think':37 'uptopian':92 'use':79 'want':94 'work':40 'worker':55 'yes':1"
          +ranking: 0
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          +downVotes: 0
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697884195 {#1606
            date: 2023-10-21 12:29:55.0 +02:00
          }
          +"title": 62738
        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
          +image: null
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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      US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
      \n
      > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          +body: """
            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
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            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
      \n
      > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
      \n
      > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
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            date: 2023-10-21 12:48:25.0 +02:00
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721}
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
      \n
      > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
      \n
      > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
      \n
      I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
      \n
      > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
      \n
      That’s not what exploitation is.\n
      \n
      > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
      \n
      The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
      \n
      > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
      \n
      The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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    +body: """
      No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
      \n
      > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
      \n
      I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
      \n
      > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
      \n
      That’s not what exploitation is.\n
      \n
      > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
      \n
      The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
      \n
      > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
      \n
      The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
      """
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    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#7394
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1697912128 {#1714
    date: 2023-10-21 20:15:28.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#7450
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1697912128 {#1714
    date: 2023-10-21 20:15:28.0 +02:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1697912128 {#1714
    date: 2023-10-21 20:15:28.0 +02:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#5173
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697912128 {#1714
    date: 2023-10-21 20:15:28.0 +02:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.20 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
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    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#6370
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
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    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
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    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
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      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
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      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
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  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.38 ms
Input props
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
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        date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
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      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
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      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
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      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
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      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
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      +privateKey: null
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      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
        date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
        date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#4162 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4163 …}
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        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4171 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4173 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4179 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4187 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4200 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4210 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4192 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4216 …}
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        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
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        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
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        }
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#4161
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2314 …}
      +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
      +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2060 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2068 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2059 …}
      +children: [
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1641
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1589 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1593 …}
          +body: """
            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
      \n
      > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
      \n
      I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
      \n
      > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
      \n
      That’s not what exploitation is.\n
      \n
      > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
      \n
      The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
      \n
      > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
      \n
      The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
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            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
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            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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    +body: """
      No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
      \n
      > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
      \n
      I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
      \n
      > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
      \n
      That’s not what exploitation is.\n
      \n
      > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
      \n
      The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
      \n
      > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
      \n
      The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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      No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
      \n
      > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
      \n
      I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
      \n
      > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
      \n
      That’s not what exploitation is.\n
      \n
      > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
      \n
      The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
      \n
      > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
      \n
      The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
            \n
            I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
            \n
            > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
            \n
            Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
            \n
            > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
            \n
            Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
            \n
            > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
            \n
            I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
            """
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    +body: """
      No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
      \n
      > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
      \n
      > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
      \n
      I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
      \n
      > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
      \n
      That’s not what exploitation is.\n
      \n
      > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
      \n
      The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
      \n
      > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
      \n
      The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
      \n
      Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
      """
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          +body: """
            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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      > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
      \n
      I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
      \n
      > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
      \n
      Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
      \n
      > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
      \n
      Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
      \n
      > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
      \n
      I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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    +body: """
      > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
      \n
      I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
      \n
      > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
      \n
      Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
      \n
      > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
      \n
      Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
      \n
      > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
      \n
      I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
      """
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    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#7811
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1697915738 {#2462
    date: 2023-10-21 21:15:38.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#7867
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1697915738 {#2462
    date: 2023-10-21 21:15:38.0 +02:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.10 ms
Input props
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1697915738 {#2462
    date: 2023-10-21 21:15:38.0 +02:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#7921
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697915738 {#2462
    date: 2023-10-21 21:15:38.0 +02:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.20 ms
Input props
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#7975
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
      date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
    -id: 8003
    -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
    +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
      date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
      date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.36 ms
Input props
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#246 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +email: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535427 {#275
        date: 2024-10-21 20:30:27.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#236 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#232 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#221 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#179 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#151 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#124 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#67 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1372 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1594 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1873 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1769 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1809 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2390 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1860 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1857 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1791 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2480 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1373 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2413 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1884 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1867 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1920 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1395 …}
      -id: 8003
      -password: "$2y$13$KcbQZOFNusZP5Uvb.L2hseULP/AsTPX3Z3mTxZSrd0FhsElAaHK1W"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1953 …}
      +apId: "yogthos@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/yogthos"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "yogthos"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728507823 {#269
        date: 2024-10-09 23:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
        date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#4162 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 65073
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        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#4159
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4163 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4165 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4167 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4169 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4171 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4173 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4179 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4187 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4200 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4210 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4192 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4216 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#4160
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#4161
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2314 …}
      +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
      +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
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      +favouriteCount: 405
      +score: 0
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      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697973365 {#1926
        date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2060 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2068 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2059 …}
      +children: [
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1641
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1589 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1593 …}
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
            """
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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          +body: """
            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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      > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
      \n
      I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
      \n
      > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
      \n
      Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
      \n
      > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
      \n
      Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
      \n
      > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
      \n
      I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
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            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
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          +body: """
            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
          +user: App\Entity\User {#265}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1576 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458}
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1567 …2}
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    +body: """
      > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
      \n
      I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
      \n
      > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
      \n
      Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
      \n
      > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
      \n
      Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
      \n
      > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
      \n
      I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
      """
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boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 0.63 ms
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
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      > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
      \n
      I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
      \n
      > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
      \n
      Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
      \n
      > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
      \n
      Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
      \n
      > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
      \n
      I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
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            Yes, communists distinguish between the state machine and the class who holds power. The problem communists have with the capitalist state is that it’s built by the capital owning class in its own interests. Communists think that the working class has to build its own state machine that serves the interests of the workers.\n
            \n
            Once again, if you actually study history, you will see that state style organization arises regardless of the political system, and societies that use this sort of organization outcompete those that don’t. Communists aren’t uptopians, we want tangible and practical improvements in the realm of the possible.
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          +body: "I understand how cooperatives work, the point you continue to ignore is that none of what you say is seen working in practice despite over a century of people trying to compete with traditional business model under capitalism. Cooperative organization would work perfectly fine after the capitalist system is overthrown however."
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            > The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
            \n
            Having a single party simply means that society has decided on a political system they want which is communism. Plenty of debate and change can happen within that scope. In fact, we can see this in practice with China where the political system proved to be far more flexible and adaptable than the multiparty systems seen in the west.\n
            \n
            What actually happens with multi party systems is that they favor homeostasis. Since you have elections every few years, that becomes the horizon for doing large scale projects. Once a new party is voted in, they can abandon the project and change course. This makes it very difficult to make large scale changes and long term planning. This is why stuff like large scale infrastructure projects is effectively impossible to do in western countries.\n
            \n
            > Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
            \n
            A proletarian is any person whose primary source of income is their labour, so all skilled workers and administrators belong to the proletarian class. This is also not a hypothetical as you can look at how this works in practice in Cuba, Vietnam, or even China.\n
            \n
            > You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
            \n
            What there have been as a result of revolutions is tangible improvement in the living conditions for the majority. Everywhere communist revolutions happened we’ve seen people get education, food, housing, jobs, and healthcare.\n
            \n
            And frankly, communism isn’t going to be possible until capitalism is abolished as the dominant global system. It’s not as if these societies are allowed to develop peacefully towards communism. They are constantly under siege from the capitalist empire headed by the US. The blockade on Cuba is a perfect example of this.\n
            \n
            > My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
            \n
            You keep saying this, and the elephant in the room continues to be that no evidence of this has been seen in over a century of people trying. So, unless you have something dramatically new to add here that hasn’t been tried before, there is no reason to think that this approach will work going forward based on prior experience.\n
            \n
            > Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
            \n
            It does matter how many times people failed, because doing the same thing over and over produces same results over and over. There are very clearly limits on how far cooperatives can expand, and we see what those limits are in practice. And if this model somehow did threaten the capitalist class then they will go full oppressive, as they have done in the past. You can look at how worker organization was violently put down in US in the 30s as an example.\n
            \n
            > The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.\n
            \n
            And I simply don’t expect this to achieve much of anything based on looking at prior experience. I also don’t think people should wait for a revolution. What people should do is educate others and explain the fundamental problems with the capitalist system, why it’s heading into a crisis now, and what sort of system should replace it.\n
            \n
            As I’ve mentioned before, people don’t try to make violent revolutions happen as their first choice of finding a resolution, it’s the last resort measure that people end up arriving at because the class that holds power does not allow for any peaceful resolution.\n
            \n
            We end up with revolutions, as class contradictions sharpen within society. More and more people start demanding change as they see their standards of living erode, and the ruling class inevitably resorts to increased repression. At that point, the revolution becomes the only path towards resolution of these contradictions.
            """
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          -id: 62750
          -bodyTs: "'30s':665 'abandon':160 'abl':248 'abolish':372 'achiev':720 'actual':124 'adapt':114 'add':503 'administr':224,253,272 'advanc':568 'allow':386,815 'also':280,731 'among':57 'anyth':723 'approach':54,519 'argu':301 'aris':673 'armi':683 'arriv':805 'articl':2 'base':524,724 'becom':143,860 'belong':273 'better':700 'billionair':233 'blockad':406 'busi':542 'cannot':577 'capit':370 'capitalist':399,575,635,755 'centuri':491 'chang':87,164,175,837 'china':102,299 'choic':790 'choos':63 'class':277,576,636,809,826,849 'clear':610 'collaps':240 'communism':13,38,56,82,315,324,362,391,680,705 'communist':306,346,436,453,543 'condit':341 'constant':394,539 'continu':477 'contradict':827,868 'cooper':439,557,569,584,615,688 'could':456 'countri':196 'cours':165 'creat':432,562,566 'crisi':763 'cuba':295,408 'deal':691 'debat':85 'decid':73 'demand':836 'destruct':203 'develop':388 'dictatorship':209,427 'difficult':170 'dissid':686 'doesn':530 'domin':375 'done':646 'dramat':500 'educ':245,354,746 'effect':190 'elect':138 'eleph':473 'empir':400 'end':803,821 'erod':845 'establish':207 'even':18,298 'everi':139 'everybodi':220,230 'everywher':345 'evid':482 'exampl':412,668 'expand':559,617 'expect':717 'experi':527,729 'explain':749 'fact':94 'fail':537,592 'far':110,614 'favor':133 'figur':703 'find':792 'first':789 'flexibl':112 'food':355 'forward':523 'frank':361 'full':572,641 'fundament':751 'get':353 'global':376 'go':365,522,571,640 'happen':89,125,348,786 'hasn':318,506 'head':401,760 'healthcar':359 'hold':811 'homeostasi':134 'horizon':145 'hous':356 'hypothet':283 'identifi':229 'implement':37,314 'imposs':191 'improv':337 'incom':263 'increas':853 'inevit':850 'infrastructur':187 'instead':445 'isn':363 'job':357 'keep':468 'labour':266 'larg':148,173,185 'last':798 'like':184 'likewis':197 'limit':611,623 'live':340,457,844 'long':177 'look':287,652,726 'major':344 'make':33,167,172,783 'mani':534,589 'matter':532,587 'mean':69 'measur':800 'mention':776 'mistak':35 'model':630 'much':579,721 'multi':127 'multiparti':117 'must':544 'need':424 'new':153,501 'nice':4,215 'nobodi':242 'one':10,21,53 'oni':19 'oppress':573,642 'option':46 'organ':656 'other':747 'otherwis':236 'parti':22,31,50,67,128,154 'particip':250 'past':649 'path':863 'peac':389,818 'peopl':352,493,536,538,591,735,742,778,802,834 'perfect':411 'person':258 'place':322,434,444 'plan':179 'plenti':83 'point':416,857 'polit':76,105 'popul':60 'possibl':368 'power':812 'practic':100,293,626 'prefer':463 'prevent':581 'primari':260 'prior':526,728 'problem':670,678,694,752 'produc':601 'project':150,162,188 'proletarian':226,235,255,276 'proletariat':212,430 'prove':107 'put':659 'real':677 'realiti':219,460 'reason':514 'relat':437,464 'replac':771 'repres':52 'repress':854 'requir':201 'resolut':794,819,865 'resort':799,851 'resourc':547,564 'restaur':554 'result':332,603 'revolut':307,334,347,452,711,740,785,824,859 'right':465 'room':476 'rule':848 'run':552 'say':469 'scale':149,174,186 'scope':92 'see':97,620,840 'seen':119,351,487 'sharpen':828 'show':675 'sieg':396 'simpli':68,714 'sinc':135,316 'singl':30,66 'skill':269 'small':541 'socialist':455 'societi':71,384,830 'somehow':631 'someth':499 'sort':767 'sourc':261 'standard':842 'start':312,540,835 'state':205,223,238 'stress':5 'stuff':183 'success':305 'suppress':685 'system':77,106,118,129,377,756,769 'tangibl':336 'term':178 'theori':27,216 'thing':597 'think':199,516,734 'threaten':633 'thus':528 'time':535,590 'toward':390,864 'tri':494,509,781 'true':25 'unless':496 'us':404,662 'valid':45 'various':49 've':350,775 'vietnam':296 'view':418 'violent':658,784 'vote':156 'wait':449,708,737 'want':79 'way':11,701 'west':122 'western':195 'whose':259 'within':90,829 'without':570,681 'work':291,521 'worker':270,655 'would':42,239,246 'year':141 'yet':325"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721
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            US is a huge country with a ton of natural resources. This isn’t an actual problem. The reason there is a problem is because the capital owning class would rather do production outside of US in cheaper markets, and the mechanics of that are explained [here](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/08/the-value-of-nothing-capital-versus-growth/) in great detail. A communist revolution would result in people in US using their own resources for the benefit of the workers. No exploitation is necessary here.\n
            \n
            > Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from starting a coop restaurant now, it’s just not going to address the fundamental problems in the capitalist system that are continuously pushing the entire system towards the inevitable collapse. The very mechanics of capitalism are unsustainable. The only possible paths are either a revolution or descent into full on fascism.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718
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          +body: """
            No, outsourcing does not spread wealth globally. In fact, the very opposite of that is happening in practice.\n
            \n
            > [If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > [The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)\n
            \n
            > It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach.\n
            \n
            I’m not arguing for isolationism at all. I’m arguing for the country to leverage its own resources and labour to meet its needs without relying on exploitation of other countries. In fact, this has to be the foundation for any sort of public ownership where the workers own the means of production.\n
            \n
            > That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world.\n
            \n
            That’s not what exploitation is.\n
            \n
            > But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
            \n
            The problems of having constant and consistent improvement of standard of living for its population without suffering economic crashes every decade as seen under capitalism?\n
            \n
            > Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.\n
            \n
            The text simply explains the mechanics of financial capitalism which led to deindustrialization of the west. I do not have to agree with every single conclusion it makes. I don’t have t come up with anything new because I’m perfectly happy with the kinds of relations USSR, Cuba, or China managed to achieve. I see these as a real and tangible improvement on relations in western societies under capitalism.\n
            \n
            Nobody is stopping you from implementing your cooperativist utopia, but I’m simply explaining to you that it’s an unlikely outcome in practice. You can do what you want with that.
            """
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    +body: """
      > if native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
      \n
      I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean to be honest. Why would Native Americans taking back the land be somehow at odds with communism. have you ever talked to a Native American person, their ideas are very much aligned with what communists want.\n
      \n
      > For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
      \n
      Nobody is talking about any isolation here except you.\n
      \n
      > You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
      \n
      Again, nowhere did I say anything of the sort. However, it’s up to the people of each country to figure out how to make their system work for the majority. Nobody is going to solve America’s problems for it.\n
      \n
      > I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?\n
      \n
      I don’t understand what this sentence means. China is the only place in the world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening and they have lifted over 800 million people out of poverty.
      """
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App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#8707
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App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#8766
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App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#8822
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App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#8878
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[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#8999
  +label: "Show "Support Us" block"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_SUPPORT_US_BLOCK"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.19 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show subscribed users"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_USERS"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9057
  +label: "Show subscribed users"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_USERS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show subscribed magazines"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_MAGAZINES"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9113
  +label: "Show subscribed magazines"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_MAGAZINES"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show subscribed domains"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_DOMAINS"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9169
  +label: "Show subscribed domains"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_DOMAINS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.23 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Auto media preview"
  "help" => "Automatically expand media previews."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_PREVIEW"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9225
  +label: "Auto media preview"
  +help: "Automatically expand media previews."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_PREVIEW"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Compact view"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_COMPACT"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9281
  +label: "Compact view"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_COMPACT"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show users’ avatars"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9337
  +label: "Show users’ avatars"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show magazines’ icons"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_MAGAZINES_ICONS"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9393
  +label: "Show magazines’ icons"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_MAGAZINES_ICONS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show thumbnails"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_THUMBNAILS"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9449
  +label: "Show thumbnails"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_THUMBNAILS"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Auto media preview"
  "help" => "Automatically expand media previews."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_PREVIEW"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9505
  +label: "Auto media preview"
  +help: "Automatically expand media previews."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_PREVIEW"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.18 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show users’ avatars"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9561
  +label: "Show users’ avatars"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_enum App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent 12.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Comment reply position"
  "help" => "Display the comment reply form either at the top or bottom of the page. When 'infinite scroll' is enabled the position will always appear at the top."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_COMMENTS_REPLY_POSITION"
  "values" => [
    [
      "name" => "top"
      "value" => "TOP"
    ]
    [
      "name" => "bottom"
      "value" => "BOTTOM"
    ]
  ]
  "defaultValue" => "TOP"
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent {#9617
  +label: "Comment reply position"
  +help: "Display the comment reply form either at the top or bottom of the page. When 'infinite scroll' is enabled the position will always appear at the top."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_COMMENTS_REPLY_POSITION"
  +values: [
    [
      "name" => "top"
      "value" => "TOP"
    ]
    [
      "name" => "bottom"
      "value" => "BOTTOM"
    ]
  ]
  +defaultValue: "TOP"
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props
[
  "label" => "Show Comment Avatars"
  "help" => "Display/hide user avatars when viewing comments on a single thread or post."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_COMMENTS_SHOW_USER_AVATAR"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#9675
  +label: "Show Comment Avatars"
  +help: "Display/hide user avatars when viewing comments on a single thread or post."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_COMMENTS_SHOW_USER_AVATAR"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
    date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#9748
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1687485815 {#268
    date: 2023-06-23 04:03:35.0 +02:00
  }
}
related_magazines App\Twig\Components\RelatedMagazinesComponent 12.0 MiB 1.95 ms
Input props
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\RelatedMagazinesComponent {#9835
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +title: "random_magazines"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\MagazineRepository {#2446 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
}
active_users App\Twig\Components\ActiveUsersComponent 12.0 MiB 0.25 ms
Input props
[
  "magazine" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\ActiveUsersComponent {#9900
  +magazine: null
  -userRepository: App\Repository\UserRepository {#603 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
}
related_categories App\Twig\Components\RelatedCategoriesComponent 12.0 MiB 1.32 ms
Input props
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\RelatedCategoriesComponent {#9959
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +title: "random_categories"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\CategoryRepository {#9960 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
}
related_posts App\Twig\Components\RelatedPostsComponent 12.0 MiB 1.76 ms
Input props
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\RelatedPostsComponent {#10029
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +post: null
  +title: "random_posts"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\PostRepository {#1635 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -mentionManager: App\Service\MentionManager {#1536 …}
}
related_entries App\Twig\Components\RelatedEntriesComponent 12.0 MiB 1.58 ms
Input props
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\RelatedEntriesComponent {#10098
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +entry: null
  +title: "random_entries"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\EntryRepository {#1784 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -mentionManager: App\Service\MentionManager {#1536 …}
}
support_us_block App\Twig\Components\SupportUsBlock 12.0 MiB 0.21 ms
Input props
[]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\SupportUsBlock {#10167
  +subject: ? App\Entity\Contracts\VotableInterface
  +url: ? string
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -partnerBlockRepository: App\Repository\PartnerBlockRepository {#10168 …}
}
featured_magazines App\Twig\Components\FeaturedMagazinesComponent 12.0 MiB 0.86 ms
Input props
[
  "magazine" => null
]
Attributes
[]
Component
App\Twig\Components\FeaturedMagazinesComponent {#10260
  +magazine: null
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -repository: App\Repository\MagazineRepository {#2446 …}
}