GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@yogthos@lemmy.ml/active?p=4

Response
200 OK
IP
18.219.94.100
Profiled on
Token
9da7d4

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 0.30 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.04 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2954 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3099 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3101 …}
  +slug: "It-s-a-simple-world-view"
  +title: "It's a simple world view"
  +url: "https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/b6b72988-8186-4812-a74a-1d866592588b.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 93
  +favouriteCount: 929
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1708469315 {#3082
    date: 2024-02-20 23:48:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3102 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3104 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3106 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3108 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3110 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3112 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +body: "Nah, the problems are due to capitalist economic relations and systemic pressures these relations create in society."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 9
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702344188 {#2133
        date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@BachenBenno@feddit.de"
        "@Hegar@kbin.social"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
      -id: 217643
      -bodyTs: "'capitalist':7 'creat':15 'due':5 'econom':8 'nah':1 'pressur':12 'problem':3 'relat':9,14 'societi':17 'system':11"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6579864"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702344188 {#2129
        date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 217643
    }
  ]
  -id: 21718
  -titleTs: "'simpl':4 'view':6 'world':5"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702408179
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://feddit.de/post/6610336"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702321779 {#3072
    date: 2023-12-11 20:09:39.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2954 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3099 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3101 …}
  +slug: "It-s-a-simple-world-view"
  +title: "It's a simple world view"
  +url: "https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/b6b72988-8186-4812-a74a-1d866592588b.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 93
  +favouriteCount: 929
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1708469315 {#3082
    date: 2024-02-20 23:48:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3102 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3104 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3106 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3108 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3110 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3112 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +body: "Nah, the problems are due to capitalist economic relations and systemic pressures these relations create in society."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 9
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702344188 {#2133
        date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@BachenBenno@feddit.de"
        "@Hegar@kbin.social"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
      -id: 217643
      -bodyTs: "'capitalist':7 'creat':15 'due':5 'econom':8 'nah':1 'pressur':12 'problem':3 'relat':9,14 'societi':17 'system':11"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6579864"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702344188 {#2129
        date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 217643
    }
  ]
  -id: 21718
  -titleTs: "'simpl':4 'view':6 'world':5"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702408179
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://feddit.de/post/6610336"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702321779 {#3072
    date: 2023-12-11 20:09:39.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2954 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3099 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3101 …}
  +slug: "It-s-a-simple-world-view"
  +title: "It's a simple world view"
  +url: "https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/b6b72988-8186-4812-a74a-1d866592588b.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 93
  +favouriteCount: 929
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1708469315 {#3082
    date: 2024-02-20 23:48:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3102 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3104 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3106 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3108 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3110 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3112 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
      +body: "Nah, the problems are due to capitalist economic relations and systemic pressures these relations create in society."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 9
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702344188 {#2133
        date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@BachenBenno@feddit.de"
        "@Hegar@kbin.social"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
      -id: 217643
      -bodyTs: "'capitalist':7 'creat':15 'due':5 'econom':8 'nah':1 'pressur':12 'problem':3 'relat':9,14 'societi':17 'system':11"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6579864"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702344188 {#2129
        date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 217643
    }
  ]
  -id: 21718
  -titleTs: "'simpl':4 'view':6 'world':5"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702408179
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://feddit.de/post/6610336"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702321779 {#3072
    date: 2023-12-11 20:09:39.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2954 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3099 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3101 …}
    +slug: "It-s-a-simple-world-view"
    +title: "It's a simple world view"
    +url: "https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/b6b72988-8186-4812-a74a-1d866592588b.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 93
    +favouriteCount: 929
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1708469315 {#3082
      date: 2024-02-20 23:48:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3102 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3104 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3106 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3108 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3110 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3112 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131}
    ]
    -id: 21718
    -titleTs: "'simpl':4 'view':6 'world':5"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702408179
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://feddit.de/post/6610336"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702321779 {#3072
      date: 2023-12-11 20:09:39.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +body: "Nah, the problems are due to capitalist economic relations and systemic pressures these relations create in society."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 9
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702344188 {#2133
    date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@BachenBenno@feddit.de"
    "@Hegar@kbin.social"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2350 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2348 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2351 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2332 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2349 …}
  -id: 217643
  -bodyTs: "'capitalist':7 'creat':15 'due':5 'econom':8 'nah':1 'pressur':12 'problem':3 'relat':9,14 'societi':17 'system':11"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6579864"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702344188 {#2129
    date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 217643
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2954 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3099 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3101 …}
    +slug: "It-s-a-simple-world-view"
    +title: "It's a simple world view"
    +url: "https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/b6b72988-8186-4812-a74a-1d866592588b.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +commentCount: 93
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1708469315 {#3082
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    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3102 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3110 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3112 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131}
    ]
    -id: 21718
    -titleTs: "'simpl':4 'view':6 'world':5"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1702408179
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702321779 {#3072
      date: 2023-12-11 20:09:39.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +body: "Nah, the problems are due to capitalist economic relations and systemic pressures these relations create in society."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  }
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    "@BachenBenno@feddit.de"
    "@Hegar@kbin.social"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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  -id: 217643
  -bodyTs: "'capitalist':7 'creat':15 'due':5 'econom':8 'nah':1 'pressur':12 'problem':3 'relat':9,14 'societi':17 'system':11"
  +ranking: 0
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    date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 217643
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2132
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2954 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3099 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#3101 …}
    +slug: "It-s-a-simple-world-view"
    +title: "It's a simple world view"
    +url: "https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/b6b72988-8186-4812-a74a-1d866592588b.jpeg"
    +body: null
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3110 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3112 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2131}
    ]
    -id: 21718
    -titleTs: "'simpl':4 'view':6 'world':5"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1702408179
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702321779 {#3072
      date: 2023-12-11 20:09:39.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2138 …}
  +body: "Nah, the problems are due to capitalist economic relations and systemic pressures these relations create in society."
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    "@BachenBenno@feddit.de"
    "@Hegar@kbin.social"
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  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2040 …}
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  -id: 217643
  -bodyTs: "'capitalist':7 'creat':15 'due':5 'econom':8 'nah':1 'pressur':12 'problem':3 'relat':9,14 'societi':17 'system':11"
  +ranking: 0
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702344188 {#2129
    date: 2023-12-12 02:23:08.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 217643
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
  +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
  +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
  +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 80
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  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703001476 {#2177
    date: 2023-12-19 16:57:56.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2974 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3019 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3027 …}
  +children: [
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2088 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
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      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
      -id: 217593
      -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702339032 {#2063
        date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 217593
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 9
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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        "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2328 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2324 …}
      -id: 218016
      -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702381904 {#2060
        date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218016
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2074 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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        "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
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      -id: 218127
      -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218127
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: """
        Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2053 …}
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      -id: 218151
      -bodyTs: "'/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~':38 '/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=the%20background%20was%20that%20president,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20ukraine)':41 '/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)':20 '/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms':17 'aaronmate.net':16 'admit':24 'american':59 'chang':70 'empir':54 'even':1 'evil':65 'expans':35 'final':23 'go':68 'keep':60 'last':14 'lesser':64 'long':57 'march':15 'meanwhil':21,42 'nato':34 'negoti':13 'noth':66 'one':51 'peopl':43 'put':45 'reason':27 'run':52 'say':5 'start':30 'stoltenberg':22 'stop':12 'togeth':48 'ukrainian':2 'vote':61 'war':29 'west':10 'www.aaronmate.net':19 'www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)':18 'www.nato.int':37,40 'www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~':36 'www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=the%20background%20was%20that%20president,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20ukraine)':39"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6590141"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702387127 {#2050
        date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218151
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2157 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: """
        Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
        \n
        NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 4
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        date: 2023-12-12 22:34:16.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2151 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2145 …}
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      -id: 219386
      -bodyTs: "'absurd':7 'aggress':138 'allianc':140 'beyond':67 'blue':92 'border':40,143 'choic':33 'chose':48 'context':78 'countri':118,131 'decad':123 'demand':8 'either':35 'els':65 'event':86 'expans':3,37 'fall':109 'forc':21,46,54 'gave':30 'geopolit':77 'happen':88 'histori':75 'ignor':72 'infantil':68 'invad':114 'logic':96 'longer':135 'maintain':100 'make':105 'might':104 'militari':139 'narrat':57 'nato':2,31,47,98 'nobodi':64 'numer':117 'past':121 'polici':102 'power':15 'pretend':79 'putin':59 'random':85 'raze':116 'reason':97 'resolv':42,50 'right':106 'run':128 'russia':10,29 'sinc':107 'situat':44,52 'start':60 'stop':1,17,36 'toler':136 'ussr':111 'war':62 'whole':56 'would':4"
      +ranking: 0
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      }
      +"title": 219386
    }
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  -id: 21682
  -titleTs: "'fascism':3 'fault':8 'rememb':1 'win':4"
  -bodyTs: null
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702311105 {#2841
    date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details
11 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
  +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
  +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
  +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
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    date: 2023-12-19 16:57:56.0 +01:00
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  +children: [
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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      -id: 217593
      -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 217593
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2331 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
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      -id: 218016
      -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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        date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218016
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2074 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218127
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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      +image: null
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: """
        Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
      ]
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      -id: 218151
      -bodyTs: "'/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~':38 '/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=the%20background%20was%20that%20president,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20ukraine)':41 '/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)':20 '/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms':17 'aaronmate.net':16 'admit':24 'american':59 'chang':70 'empir':54 'even':1 'evil':65 'expans':35 'final':23 'go':68 'keep':60 'last':14 'lesser':64 'long':57 'march':15 'meanwhil':21,42 'nato':34 'negoti':13 'noth':66 'one':51 'peopl':43 'put':45 'reason':27 'run':52 'say':5 'start':30 'stoltenberg':22 'stop':12 'togeth':48 'ukrainian':2 'vote':61 'war':29 'west':10 'www.aaronmate.net':19 'www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)':18 'www.nato.int':37,40 'www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~':36 'www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=the%20background%20was%20that%20president,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20ukraine)':39"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 218151
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2157 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: """
        Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
        \n
        NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
        """
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
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        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2151 …}
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      -id: 219386
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  -id: 21682
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    date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
  +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
  +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
  +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
  +body: null
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  +children: [
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
      +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 217593
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
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      +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
      +lang: "en"
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        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2314 …}
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      -id: 218016
      -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218016
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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      +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2066 …}
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      -id: 218127
      -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702386088 {#2069
        date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218127
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
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      +body: """
        Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
        """
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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      +body: """
        Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
        \n
        NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
        """
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        "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
      ]
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      +"title": 219386
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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14 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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        -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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        +"title": 218151
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2157 …}
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        +body: """
          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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        -id: 219386
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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}
 
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15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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        +"title": 218016
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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        -id: 218127
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218127
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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        +body: """
          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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        -id: 219386
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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Show voter details
16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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        -id: 218016
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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        -id: 218127
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 218127
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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        +"title": 218151
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          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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  +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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}
 
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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  +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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  -id: 218016
  -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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    date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 218016
}
 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
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      date: 2023-12-19 16:57:56.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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        -id: 217593
        -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702339032 {#2063
          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2074 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        ]
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        -id: 218127
        -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218127
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 218151
        -bodyTs: "'/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~':38 '/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=the%20background%20was%20that%20president,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20ukraine)':41 '/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)':20 '/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms':17 'aaronmate.net':16 'admit':24 'american':59 'chang':70 'empir':54 'even':1 'evil':65 'expans':35 'final':23 'go':68 'keep':60 'last':14 'lesser':64 'long':57 'march':15 'meanwhil':21,42 'nato':34 'negoti':13 'noth':66 'one':51 'peopl':43 'put':45 'reason':27 'run':52 'say':5 'start':30 'stoltenberg':22 'stop':12 'togeth':48 'ukrainian':2 'vote':61 'war':29 'west':10 'www.aaronmate.net':19 'www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)':18 'www.nato.int':37,40 'www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~':36 'www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=the%20background%20was%20that%20president,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20ukraine)':39"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702387127 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218151
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2157 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: """
          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
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        -id: 219386
        -bodyTs: "'absurd':7 'aggress':138 'allianc':140 'beyond':67 'blue':92 'border':40,143 'choic':33 'chose':48 'context':78 'countri':118,131 'decad':123 'demand':8 'either':35 'els':65 'event':86 'expans':3,37 'fall':109 'forc':21,46,54 'gave':30 'geopolit':77 'happen':88 'histori':75 'ignor':72 'infantil':68 'invad':114 'logic':96 'longer':135 'maintain':100 'make':105 'might':104 'militari':139 'narrat':57 'nato':2,31,47,98 'nobodi':64 'numer':117 'past':121 'polici':102 'power':15 'pretend':79 'putin':59 'random':85 'raze':116 'reason':97 'resolv':42,50 'right':106 'run':128 'russia':10,29 'sinc':107 'situat':44,52 'start':60 'stop':1,17,36 'toler':136 'ussr':111 'war':62 'whole':56 'would':4"
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        +"title": 219386
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    ]
    -id: 21682
    -titleTs: "'fascism':3 'fault':8 'rememb':1 'win':4"
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    +apId: "https://slrpnk.net/post/4811881"
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
  +lang: "en"
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    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
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  -id: 218016
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  +"title": 218016
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
    +body: null
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    +children: [
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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        -id: 217593
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          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        ]
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        -id: 218127
        -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218127
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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  +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065}
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
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  +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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  -id: 218127
  -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
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    date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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}
 
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Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
    +body: null
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      date: 2023-12-19 16:57:56.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
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        -id: 218016
        -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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          date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218016
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +image: null
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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        -id: 218151
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        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702387127 {#2050
          date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218151
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2157 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: """
          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
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        -id: 219386
        -bodyTs: "'absurd':7 'aggress':138 'allianc':140 'beyond':67 'blue':92 'border':40,143 'choic':33 'chose':48 'context':78 'countri':118,131 'decad':123 'demand':8 'either':35 'els':65 'event':86 'expans':3,37 'fall':109 'forc':21,46,54 'gave':30 'geopolit':77 'happen':88 'histori':75 'ignor':72 'infantil':68 'invad':114 'logic':96 'longer':135 'maintain':100 'make':105 'might':104 'militari':139 'narrat':57 'nato':2,31,47,98 'nobodi':64 'numer':117 'past':121 'polici':102 'power':15 'pretend':79 'putin':59 'random':85 'raze':116 'reason':97 'resolv':42,50 'right':106 'run':128 'russia':10,29 'sinc':107 'situat':44,52 'start':60 'stop':1,17,36 'toler':136 'ussr':111 'war':62 'whole':56 'would':4"
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        +"title": 219386
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    ]
    -id: 21682
    -titleTs: "'fascism':3 'fault':8 'rememb':1 'win':4"
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
  +lang: "en"
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    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
    "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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  +"title": 218127
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
    +body: null
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    +children: [
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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        -id: 217593
        -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 9
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        ]
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        -id: 218016
        -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702381904 {#2060
          date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218016
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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  +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055}
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          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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  +body: """
    Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
    """
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}
 
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Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
    +body: null
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      date: 2023-12-19 16:57:56.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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        -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702339032 {#2063
          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
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          date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 218016
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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        -id: 218127
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        +"title": 218127
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055}
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        +body: """
          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
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        -id: 219386
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        +ranking: 0
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        +"title": 219386
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    ]
    -id: 21682
    -titleTs: "'fascism':3 'fault':8 'rememb':1 'win':4"
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
    """
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    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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    "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
    "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 218016
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        +"title": 218016
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        ]
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        -id: 218127
        -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702386088 {#2069
          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218127
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2157 …}
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        +body: """
          Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
          \n
          NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
          """
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
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        -id: 219386
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
    """
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    "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
    "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
    "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
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    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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        -id: 217593
        -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
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        -id: 218016
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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        -id: 218127
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
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    -id: 21682
    -titleTs: "'fascism':3 'fault':8 'rememb':1 'win':4"
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  +body: """
    Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
    \n
    NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
    """
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    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
    "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
    "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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    date: 2023-12-12 22:34:16.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 219386
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
    +body: null
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      date: 2023-12-19 16:57:56.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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        -id: 217593
        -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702339032 {#2063
          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 9
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          date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
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          "@TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net"
          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
        ]
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        -id: 218016
        -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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          date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218016
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2074 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
        ]
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        -id: 218127
        -bodyTs: "'action':32 'also':10 'biden':1,27 'bring':35 'china':26 'closer':38 'continu':3,21,33 'drag':11 'escal':23 'lunat':30 'polici':7 'proxi':16 'russia':19 'tension':24 'war':17,42 'whose':31 'world':13,37,41"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218127
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052 …}
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
          "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2054 …}
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:18:47.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 218151
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
    ]
    -id: 21682
    -titleTs: "'fascism':3 'fault':8 'rememb':1 'win':4"
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
    \n
    NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
    """
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    "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
    "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
    "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
  ]
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  -id: 219386
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  +"title": 219386
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2702 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2955 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2976 …}
    +slug: "Remember-if-Fascism-wins-it-is-YOUR-FAULT"
    +title: "Remember, if Fascism wins it is YOUR FAULT."
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/dc41543a-b0b5-44e5-ad28-8415d693d37e.webp"
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    +children: [
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2080
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2089 …}
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        +body: "People of Gaza are so lucky that it’s the lesser of the two evils facilitating their genocide."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
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        -id: 217593
        -bodyTs: "'evil':15 'facilit':16 'gaza':3 'genocid':18 'lesser':11 'lucki':6 'peopl':1 'two':14"
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          date: 2023-12-12 00:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217593
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2164
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        +body: "Trump would’ve done the exact same thing. You’re not minimizing any damage your regime is facilitating a literal genocide. The fact that you’re keep trying to minimize this fact because it’s your fascist in office shows how utterly morally bankrupt you are."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
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        -id: 218016
        -bodyTs: "'bankrupt':44 'damag':14 'done':4 'exact':6 'facilit':18 'fact':23,32 'fascist':37 'genocid':21 'keep':27 'liter':20 'minim':12,30 'moral':43 'offic':39 're':10,26 'regim':16 'show':40 'thing':8 'tri':28 'trump':1 'utter':42 've':3 'would':2"
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          date: 2023-12-12 12:51:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218016
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2065
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2064 …2}
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        +body: "Biden has continued all the same policies and has also dragged the world into a proxy war against Russia while continuing to escalate tensions with China. Biden is a lunatic whose actions continue to bring the world closer to a world war."
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          "@taanegl@beehaw.org"
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev"
          "@OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip"
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          date: 2023-12-12 14:01:28.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 218127
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2055
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Even Ukrainians are now saying that it was the west that stopped negotiations last March [aaronmate.net/…/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms](https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, Stoltenberg finally admitted that the reason the war started was because of NATO expansion [www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President,condition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine)\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, people who put this all together are the ones running the empire, and as long as Americans keep voting for the lesser evil nothing’s going to change.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
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    -id: 21682
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      date: 2023-12-11 17:11:45.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Stopping NATO expansion would be an absurd demand if Russia did not have the power to stop do so by force which is what it’s now doing. Russia gave NATO a choice of either stopping expansion to its borders, or resolving the situation by force. NATO chose to resolve the situation by force. The whole narrative that Putin started the war and nobody else is beyond infantile because it just ignores all the history and geopolitical context pretending as if this was some random event that happened out of the blue and for no logical reason.\n
    \n
    NATO has maintained a policy of might makes right since the fall of USSR, it has invaded and razed numerous countries over the past few decades, and now it’s run into a country that will no longer tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders.
    """
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    "@SylviaTheDragon@lemmy.blahaj.zone"
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2342
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  +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
  +title: "The Nordic Model"
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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      +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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      -id: 218097
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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      +body: """
        The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
        \n
        Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
        \n
        [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
        \n
        [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
        \n
        [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
        \n
        [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
        """
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2161 …}
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      +body: """
        meanwhile in the real world\n
        \n
        - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
        - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
        - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
        - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
        """
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
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      +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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      +body: """
        A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
        \n
        > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
        \n
        Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
        \n
        > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
        \n
        Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
        \n
        > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
        \n
        Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
        """
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        > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
        \n
        Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
        \n
        > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
        \n
        My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
        \n
        I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
        \n
        > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
        \n
        Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
        """
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      +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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        > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
        \n
        Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
        \n
        > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
        \n
        If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
        \n
        > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
        \n
        The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
        \n
        > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
        \n
        I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
        \n
        > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
        \n
        Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
        """
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        > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
        \n
        What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
        \n
        > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
        \n
        I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
        \n
        > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
        \n
        What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
        \n
        > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
        \n
        Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
        \n
        > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
        \n
        They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
        \n
        > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
        \n
        There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
        \n
        > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
        \n
        Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
        \n
        The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
        \n
        Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
        """
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2342
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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      +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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        The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
        \n
        Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
        \n
        [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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        [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
        \n
        [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
        \n
        [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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        meanwhile in the real world\n
        \n
        - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
        - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
        - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
        - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
        """
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      +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
        \n
        > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
        \n
        Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
        \n
        > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
        \n
        Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
        \n
        > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
        \n
        Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
        """
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        > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
        \n
        Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
        \n
        > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
        \n
        My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
        \n
        I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
        \n
        > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
        \n
        Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
        """
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      +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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        > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
        \n
        Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
        \n
        > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
        \n
        If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
        \n
        > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
        \n
        The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
        \n
        > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
        \n
        I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
        \n
        > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
        \n
        Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
        """
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        > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
        \n
        What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
        \n
        > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
        \n
        I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
        \n
        > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
        \n
        What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
        \n
        > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
        \n
        Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
        \n
        > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
        \n
        They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
        \n
        > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
        \n
        There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
        \n
        > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
        \n
        Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
        \n
        The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
        \n
        Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
        """
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36 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2342
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  +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
  +title: "The Nordic Model"
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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      +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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      +body: """
        The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
        \n
        Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
        \n
        [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
        \n
        [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
        \n
        [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
        \n
        [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
        """
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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      +body: """
        meanwhile in the real world\n
        \n
        - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
        - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
        - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
        - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-12 15:48:09.0 +01:00
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2214 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2337 …}
      +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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      +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276
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      +body: """
        A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
        \n
        > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
        \n
        Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
        \n
        > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
        \n
        Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
        \n
        > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
        \n
        Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
        """
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        > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
        \n
        Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
        \n
        > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
        \n
        My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
        \n
        I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
        \n
        > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
        \n
        Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
        """
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      +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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        > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
        \n
        Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
        \n
        > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
        \n
        If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
        \n
        > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
        \n
        The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
        \n
        > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
        \n
        I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
        \n
        > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
        \n
        Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
        """
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        > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
        \n
        What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
        \n
        > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
        \n
        I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
        \n
        > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
        \n
        What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
        \n
        > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
        \n
        Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
        \n
        > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
        \n
        They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
        \n
        > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
        \n
        There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
        \n
        > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
        \n
        Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
        \n
        The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
        \n
        Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
        """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: """
          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    ]
    -id: 21787
    -titleTs: "'model':3 'nordic':2"
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      date: 2023-12-12 12:57:32.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2337 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2337 …}
  +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: """
          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2337 …}
        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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  +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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40 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: """
          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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      date: 2023-12-12 12:57:32.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
    \n
    Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
    \n
    [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
    \n
    [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
    \n
    [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
    \n
    [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
    """
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43 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103}
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
    \n
    Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
    \n
    [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
    \n
    [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
    \n
    [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
    \n
    [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
    """
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44 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
    \n
    Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
    \n
    [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
    \n
    [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
    \n
    [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
    \n
    [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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        +body: """
          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    meanwhile in the real world\n
    \n
    - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
    - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
    - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
    - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
    """
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47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2341
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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        +body: """
          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        -id: 218577
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          date: 2023-12-12 17:33:45.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197
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        +body: """
          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    meanwhile in the real world\n
    \n
    - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
    - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
    - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
    - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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48 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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        +body: """
          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197
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        +body: """
          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
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    meanwhile in the real world\n
    \n
    - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
    - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
    - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
    - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-12 13:41:45.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 218097
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
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          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
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          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
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          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
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          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2197
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        +body: """
          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2240
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
    \n
    > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
    \n
    Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
    \n
    > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
    \n
    Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
    \n
    > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
    \n
    Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
    """
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
    \n
    > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
    \n
    Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
    \n
    > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
    \n
    Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
    \n
    > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
    \n
    Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
    """
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
    \n
    > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
    \n
    Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
    \n
    > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
    \n
    Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
    \n
    > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
    \n
    Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
    """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
    \n
    Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
    \n
    > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
    \n
    My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
    \n
    I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
    \n
    > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
    \n
    Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
    """
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63 DENIED edit 
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2240
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
    \n
    Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
    \n
    > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
    \n
    My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
    \n
    I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
    \n
    > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
    \n
    Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
    """
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2240
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
    \n
    Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
    \n
    > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
    \n
    My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
    \n
    I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
    \n
    > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
    \n
    Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
    """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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  +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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67 DENIED edit 
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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  +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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68 DENIED moderate 
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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  +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          \n
          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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        +body: """
          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
    \n
    Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
    \n
    > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
    \n
    If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
    \n
    > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
    \n
    The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
    \n
    > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
    \n
    I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
    \n
    > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
    \n
    Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
    """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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        +body: """
          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
    \n
    Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
    \n
    > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
    \n
    If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
    \n
    > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
    \n
    The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
    \n
    > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
    \n
    I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
    \n
    > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
    \n
    Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
    """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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        +body: """
          > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
          \n
          What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
          \n
          > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
          \n
          I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
          \n
          > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
          \n
          What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
          \n
          > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
          \n
          Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
          \n
          > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
          \n
          They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
          \n
          > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
          \n
          There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
          \n
          Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
          \n
          The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
          \n
          Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
          """
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    > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
    \n
    Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
    \n
    > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
    \n
    If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
    \n
    > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
    \n
    The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
    \n
    > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
    \n
    I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
    \n
    > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
    \n
    Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
    """
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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    > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
    \n
    What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
    \n
    > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
    \n
    I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
    \n
    > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
    \n
    What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
    \n
    > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
    \n
    Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
    \n
    > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
    \n
    They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
    \n
    > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
    \n
    There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
    \n
    > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
    \n
    Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
    \n
    The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
    \n
    Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
    """
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
          \n
          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          \n
          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          \n
          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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    > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
    \n
    What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
    \n
    > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
    \n
    I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
    \n
    > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
    \n
    What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
    \n
    > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
    \n
    Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
    \n
    > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
    \n
    They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
    \n
    > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
    \n
    There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
    \n
    > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
    \n
    Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
    \n
    The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
    \n
    Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
    """
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        +body: "Nordic countries have enjoyed a high standard of living built on the brutal colonial exploitation of the global majority."
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          The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries. Nordic countries have very little industry and are certainly nowhere close to being self sufficient in any sense.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries and the benefits they reaped from European colonialism. It’s just a slightly better distribution of the imperialist plunder from 3rd world nations. They never would have been rich if they didn’t exploit workers and resources in developing nations along with forcing terribly unfair trading terms upon them. Socialism actually seeks to liberate the world from all forms of oppression whereas Scandinavian social democracy merely ships it off to 3rd world countries (which houses 85% of the world’s population). Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south:\n
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          [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
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          [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
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          [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
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          [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
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          meanwhile in the real world\n
          \n
          - [telesurenglish.net/…/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-…](https://www.telesurenglish.net/analysis/Scandinavias-Covert-Role-in-Western-Imperialism-20170320-0022.html)\n
          - [scroll.in/…/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-s…](https://scroll.in/article/867224/hitchhiking-imperialism-the-case-of-scandinavia-shows-how-europe-shared-the-spoils-of-colonialism)\n
          - [theguardian.com/…/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countri…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries)\n
          - [aljazeera.com/…/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/12/6/the-dark-side-of-the-nordic-model)
          """
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        +body: "explained in more detail here [lemmy.ml/comment/6591447](https://lemmy.ml/comment/6591447)"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
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        +body: "The Nordic model is often thrown out as an alternative to Marxism. The argument is that Nordic countries managed to create a capitalist society without exploitation."
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        +body: """
          A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          > To say the US democratic model or the Middle Eastern monarchy model are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate.\n
          \n
          Scandinavians are part of the US empire, and Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries. US does provide the military might to back this exploitation to be sure, but the resource and labour extraction is done by all western countries.\n
          \n
          > The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          Except that it does since Scandinavia is not a closed economy. This the whole point here, much of the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates. You have to look at this in a holistic fashion accounting for all the labor needed to make these economies operate as opposed to just the labor that happens domestically.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          Sure, the positive aspects of Scandinavian economies aren’t exclusive to Scandinavia, and Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.
          """
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          > Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          Of course, but the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism and that’s the reason there is sufficient support for ruling class policies from the working majority in the imperial core.\n
          \n
          > They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          My point was that many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries. This eliminates a lot of the hard labor jobs in Scandinavia that would otherwise be necessary.\n
          \n
          I’m not arguing that the proletariat are the primary beneficiaries of colonialism, I’m just pointing out that people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it. And this is a necessary part of the social contract that keeps capitalists in power.\n
          \n
          > Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.
          """
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        +body: "The problem is that exploitation is largely just exported to the countries that the west subjugate. Plenty of exploitation in places like Africa and Latin America is currently happening in order to produce cheap goods people in Europe consume. This is the kind of stuff that props things up [theguardian.com/…/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face…](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us)"
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          > I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top.\n
          \n
          Of course, undermining labor power is the point, but in the short term overall standard of living is raised. Eventually, the empire ends up hollowing out its core because the cost of maintaining the colonies starts to outpace the plunder. This is the point we’re reaching now with standard of living starting to crumble in the west. However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating for many decades on end. This fact can’t be understated.\n
          \n
          > These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is predicated on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor. Western countries don’t even have this wealth of natural resources to lean on. They are robbing the rest of the world of these resources while subjugating the people of the colonized countries. The life of a Swedish democratic socialist or a British constitutional monarchist would be wildly different without the plunder the empire is doing.\n
          \n
          > The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations.\n
          \n
          The empire is indeed starting to hollow itself out today, but we can’t ignore the history of how we got here. There are stages of development of the empire, and in the early stages most people living in imperial core did enjoy the benefits. As we get into later stages of the empire, the benefits are starting to fizzle for the majority.\n
          \n
          > If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          I’m not talking about individualistic liberal perspective here. I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved. USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR. When US empire collapses, the standard of living in the subjugated countries will rise. That’s the difference.\n
          \n
          > The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.\n
          \n
          Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.
          """
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    > Yet, what you said earlier struck me as incredibly “buzzwordy” so to say. You hinted at the choice being Marxism (we’ll come back to that one) and capitalism with the “Nordic Model” (reductive US-centric naming schemes at work) being sold as a (for you not satisfactory I assume) middle ground.\n
    \n
    What I actually said was that the Nordic model is used as an example of a viable alternative to Marxism. Nowhere did I say Marxism was the only possible option, simply that capitalism with the Nordic model is not a viable alternative.\n
    \n
    > You seem to reject this middle ground because (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m reading between the lines here) it will not solve the huge discrepancy in wealth between our richest and our poorest countries in earth.\n
    \n
    I’m not really sure what you mean by middle ground here. Either the working class owns the means of production, or you have a capital owning class in charge.\n
    \n
    > So far, so good. Now: when you talk about “Marxism”, what do you mean by that exactly?\n
    \n
    What I mean by that is workers owning the means of production such as factories, schools, farms, and so on. I mean a society where labour is done for collective benefit, and the decisions of what work is done and to what purpose are done democratically.\n
    \n
    > Isn’t any call for such a thing another manifestation of the same air of superiority we 1sr worlders tend to fall victim to?\n
    \n
    Not at all, a call for workers to overthrow the ruling class and be in charge of their own work is in no way a manifestation of 1st world superiority. That’s frankly a bizarre argument to try and make.\n
    \n
    > Even if we in the west decided that Marxism (again, whatever that means) is the Bee’s Knees right now, isn’t it just the same kind of patronizing if we just assume that the people in poorer countries think the same and expect them to (again) follow our lead into what we tell them is a better future? What if they want capitalism or whatever else?\n
    \n
    They wouldn’t be following western lead though would they. They would be following China’s Vietnam’s, Laos’s and Cuba’s lead. These are the existing Marxist states today. The west is not leading anybody here. Furthermore, the original argument here was against western colonialism and subjugation of countries. Countries having sovereignty and the right to self determination is a prerequisite for any sort of liberation.\n
    \n
    > Now regarding the “Nordic Model” or all other forms of social economy: I think it’s safe to assume that the US and Europe have a comparable amount of “oppression per person” regarding foreign industry, yet the amount of exploitation of domestic workers will vary greatly.\n
    \n
    There is no great mystery here. US is simply further along the path to late stage capitalism than Europe is. However, direction of travel is very much the same. Sweden is a great case study for this [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
    \n
    > So, if there was a way to ease this up while the rest of the world is not up for revolution stuff, why wouldn’t it be worthwhile to take that route?\n
    \n
    Where do I argue that if such a route was actually available that it should not be taken? It’s a bit of an fallacious argument to claim that Marxists want to a violent revolution.\n
    \n
    The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is a false framing of the situation, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform as opposed to those struggling for reform. Focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden overlooks the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, such as attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squads, so so on.\n
    \n
    Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be otherwise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy everyadvantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs’ repressive fury, are then called “violent revolutionaries” and “terrorists”.
    """
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        Let’s be real, if capitalists could make you work in your sleep, that’s just going to be added to your existing work. There’s zero chance it replaces 9-5. The reality is that we’ve already made stunning leaps in automation since the industrial revolution, but none of that translated into people working less.\n
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Show voter details
79 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#1686
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1691 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
  +slug: "Hey-capitalism-how-s-it-goin"
  +title: "Hey capitalism how's it goin?"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cb4a488f-8a6a-4ea3-9fd8-ab6738eb0b1a.png"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 5
  +favouriteCount: 119
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702395113 {#1680
    date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1692 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1705 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1626 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
      +body: """
        Let’s be real, if capitalists could make you work in your sleep, that’s just going to be added to your existing work. There’s zero chance it replaces 9-5. The reality is that we’ve already made stunning leaps in automation since the industrial revolution, but none of that translated into people working less.\n
        \n
        Also, I’m not a neurologist, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that hijacking your sleep cycle that evolved over millions of years to allow your brain to rest in order to do work will likely have some spectacular negative consequences.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 22
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702218810 {#1401
        date: 2023-12-10 15:33:30.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@monz@pawb.social"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2078 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2097 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2082 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2096 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2081 …}
      -id: 216948
      -bodyTs: "'-5':32 '9':31 'ad':20 'allow':88 'alreadi':39 'also':58 'autom':44 'brain':90 'capitalist':6 'chanc':28 'consequ':104 'could':7 'cycl':80 'evolv':82 'exist':23 'go':17,67,69 'hijack':77 'industri':47 'leap':42 'less':57 'let':1 'like':99 'limb':73 'm':60,66 'made':40 'make':8 'million':84 'negat':103 'neurologist':63 'none':50 'order':94 'peopl':55 'real':4 'realiti':34 'replac':30 'rest':92 'revolut':48 'sinc':45 'sleep':13,79 'spectacular':102 'stun':41 'suggest':75 'translat':53 've':38 'work':10,24,56,97 'year':86 'zero':27"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6535774"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702218810 {#1382
        date: 2023-12-10 15:33:30.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 216948
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2309 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
      +body: "Exactly, every time we have a technological advancement that can be used to exploit people further, that’s inevitably how it ends up being used."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
      }
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        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@monz@pawb.social"
        "@Tak@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2321 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2310 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2306 …}
      -id: 218439
      -bodyTs: "'advanc':8 'end':22 'everi':2 'exact':1 'exploit':14 'inevit':19 'peopl':15 'technolog':7 'time':3 'use':12,25"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702395113 {#2293
        date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 218439
    }
  ]
  -id: 21630
  -titleTs: "'capit':2 'goin':6 'hey':1"
  -bodyTs: null
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  +downVotes: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702214207 {#1689
    date: 2023-12-10 14:16:47.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
80 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#1686
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1691 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
  +slug: "Hey-capitalism-how-s-it-goin"
  +title: "Hey capitalism how's it goin?"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cb4a488f-8a6a-4ea3-9fd8-ab6738eb0b1a.png"
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  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 5
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1702395113 {#1680
    date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1692 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1705 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1626 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
      +body: """
        Let’s be real, if capitalists could make you work in your sleep, that’s just going to be added to your existing work. There’s zero chance it replaces 9-5. The reality is that we’ve already made stunning leaps in automation since the industrial revolution, but none of that translated into people working less.\n
        \n
        Also, I’m not a neurologist, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that hijacking your sleep cycle that evolved over millions of years to allow your brain to rest in order to do work will likely have some spectacular negative consequences.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 22
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702218810 {#1401
        date: 2023-12-10 15:33:30.0 +01:00
      }
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      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@monz@pawb.social"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2078 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2097 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2082 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2096 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2081 …}
      -id: 216948
      -bodyTs: "'-5':32 '9':31 'ad':20 'allow':88 'alreadi':39 'also':58 'autom':44 'brain':90 'capitalist':6 'chanc':28 'consequ':104 'could':7 'cycl':80 'evolv':82 'exist':23 'go':17,67,69 'hijack':77 'industri':47 'leap':42 'less':57 'let':1 'like':99 'limb':73 'm':60,66 'made':40 'make':8 'million':84 'negat':103 'neurologist':63 'none':50 'order':94 'peopl':55 'real':4 'realiti':34 'replac':30 'rest':92 'revolut':48 'sinc':45 'sleep':13,79 'spectacular':102 'stun':41 'suggest':75 'translat':53 've':38 'work':10,24,56,97 'year':86 'zero':27"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6535774"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702218810 {#1382
        date: 2023-12-10 15:33:30.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 216948
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2309 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
      +body: "Exactly, every time we have a technological advancement that can be used to exploit people further, that’s inevitably how it ends up being used."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
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        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@monz@pawb.social"
        "@Tak@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2321 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2310 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2306 …}
      -id: 218439
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702395113 {#2293
        date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
      }
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    }
  ]
  -id: 21630
  -titleTs: "'capit':2 'goin':6 'hey':1"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702300607
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9124124"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702214207 {#1689
    date: 2023-12-10 14:16:47.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
81 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
82 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1691 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
    +slug: "Hey-capitalism-how-s-it-goin"
    +title: "Hey capitalism how's it goin?"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cb4a488f-8a6a-4ea3-9fd8-ab6738eb0b1a.png"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1702395113 {#1680
      date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1692 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1705 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1626 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2309 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
        +body: "Exactly, every time we have a technological advancement that can be used to exploit people further, that’s inevitably how it ends up being used."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 5
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
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        +mentions: [
          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@monz@pawb.social"
          "@Tak@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2321 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2310 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2306 …}
        -id: 218439
        -bodyTs: "'advanc':8 'end':22 'everi':2 'exact':1 'exploit':14 'inevit':19 'peopl':15 'technolog':7 'time':3 'use':12,25"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6592914"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702395113 {#2293
          date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 218439
      }
    ]
    -id: 21630
    -titleTs: "'capit':2 'goin':6 'hey':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702214207 {#1689
      date: 2023-12-10 14:16:47.0 +01:00
    }
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2144 …}
  +body: """
    Let’s be real, if capitalists could make you work in your sleep, that’s just going to be added to your existing work. There’s zero chance it replaces 9-5. The reality is that we’ve already made stunning leaps in automation since the industrial revolution, but none of that translated into people working less.\n
    \n
    Also, I’m not a neurologist, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that hijacking your sleep cycle that evolved over millions of years to allow your brain to rest in order to do work will likely have some spectacular negative consequences.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 22
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702218810 {#1401
    date: 2023-12-10 15:33:30.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +mentions: [
    "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
    "@monz@pawb.social"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2079 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2078 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2097 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2082 …}
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  -id: 216948
  -bodyTs: "'-5':32 '9':31 'ad':20 'allow':88 'alreadi':39 'also':58 'autom':44 'brain':90 'capitalist':6 'chanc':28 'consequ':104 'could':7 'cycl':80 'evolv':82 'exist':23 'go':17,67,69 'hijack':77 'industri':47 'leap':42 'less':57 'let':1 'like':99 'limb':73 'm':60,66 'made':40 'make':8 'million':84 'negat':103 'neurologist':63 'none':50 'order':94 'peopl':55 'real':4 'realiti':34 'replac':30 'rest':92 'revolut':48 'sinc':45 'sleep':13,79 'spectacular':102 'stun':41 'suggest':75 'translat':53 've':38 'work':10,24,56,97 'year':86 'zero':27"
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6535774"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702218810 {#1382
    date: 2023-12-10 15:33:30.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 216948
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
83 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686
    +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1691 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
    +slug: "Hey-capitalism-how-s-it-goin"
    +title: "Hey capitalism how's it goin?"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cb4a488f-8a6a-4ea3-9fd8-ab6738eb0b1a.png"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 5
    +favouriteCount: 119
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702395113 {#1680
      date: 2023-12-12 16:31:53.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1692 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1705 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1626 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1385}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1686}
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Show voter details
84 DENIED moderate 
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Show voter details
85 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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Show voter details
86 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
87 DENIED edit 
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291}
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  +body: "Exactly, every time we have a technological advancement that can be used to exploit people further, that’s inevitably how it ends up being used."
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
88 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291
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          Let’s be real, if capitalists could make you work in your sleep, that’s just going to be added to your existing work. There’s zero chance it replaces 9-5. The reality is that we’ve already made stunning leaps in automation since the industrial revolution, but none of that translated into people working less.\n
          \n
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
89 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
90 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
91 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#1597
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
92 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#1597
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
93 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
94 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
95 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#1697
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    date: 2023-12-11 10:30:32.0 +01:00
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1585 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1575 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1559 …}
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  -titleTs: "'love':2 'uncondit':1"
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    date: 2023-12-06 04:34:14.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
96 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#1697
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1593 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
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  +title: "Unconditional Love"
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1678 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
97 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
98 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3066 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3119 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
  +slug: "purrrfectly-normal"
  +title: "purrrfectly normal"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/09548258-e3d0-45f8-8471-469eaa4f6ea3.jpeg"
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    date: 2023-12-07 23:58:13.0 +01:00
  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3121 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3129 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3131 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2411
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1907 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2469 …}
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:38:45.0 +01:00
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    date: 2023-12-06 21:28:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
99 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3066 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3119 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
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  +title: "purrrfectly normal"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/09548258-e3d0-45f8-8471-469eaa4f6ea3.jpeg"
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    date: 2023-12-07 23:58:13.0 +01:00
  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3121 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3129 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3131 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2411
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
      +image: null
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      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:38:45.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:38:45.0 +01:00
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  -id: 20733
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701894539 {#3100
    date: 2023-12-06 21:28:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
100 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3066 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3119 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
  +slug: "purrrfectly-normal"
  +title: "purrrfectly normal"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/09548258-e3d0-45f8-8471-469eaa4f6ea3.jpeg"
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    date: 2023-12-07 23:58:13.0 +01:00
  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3121 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3129 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3131 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2411
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2387 …}
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:38:45.0 +01:00
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  -id: 20733
  -titleTs: "'normal':2 'purrrfect':1"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701894539 {#3100
    date: 2023-12-06 21:28:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
101 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
102 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2411
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3066 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3119 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
    +slug: "purrrfectly-normal"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1701989893 {#3114
      date: 2023-12-07 23:58:13.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3121 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3123 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3127 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3129 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3131 …}
    +children: [
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    -id: 20733
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      date: 2023-12-06 21:28:59.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
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    date: 2023-12-07 20:38:45.0 +01:00
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  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2387 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2389 …}
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  -id: 207852
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    date: 2023-12-07 20:38:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 207852
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
103 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2411
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2392
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#3066 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1589 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3119 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1677 …}
    +slug: "purrrfectly-normal"
    +title: "purrrfectly normal"
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      date: 2023-12-07 23:58:13.0 +01:00
    }
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
104 DENIED moderate 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
105 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
106 DENIED moderate 
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      +"title": 208367
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
107 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#1565
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  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1554 …}
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1562 …}
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      +body: "Youtubers being lazy and retouching content for clicks isn’t exactly a huge discovery. I don’t think that makes the content of the video any less interesting though."
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        date: 2023-12-07 22:50:26.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 208367
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
108 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#1565
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1558 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1554 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1564 …}
  +slug: "A-great-illustration-of-how-cities-can-be-designed-around"
  +title: "A great illustration of how cities can be designed around public transit at scale"
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        date: 2023-12-07 22:50:26.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 208367
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2025
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1565}
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
117 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
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Show voter details
118 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details