GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@wwwgem@lemmy.ml/active?p=4

Response
200 OK
IP
3.17.110.85
Profiled on
Token
d87ea4

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 1.19 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.06 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
  +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
  +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
    \n
    > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
    > \n
    > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
    >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
    > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
    > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
    > \n
    > ---\n
    > \n
    > **Motivation**\n
    > \n
    > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
    > \n
    > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
    > \n
    > **My setup:**\n
    > \n
    > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
    > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
    > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
    > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
    > \n
    > **Questions:**\n
    > \n
    > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
    > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
    > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
    > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
    > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
    >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
    >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 71
  +favouriteCount: 46
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1709078963 {#2384
    date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2092 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2090 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
  +children: [
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: """
        My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
        \n
        I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
        \n
        I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703304201 {#1440
        date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1651 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1655 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1654 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1561 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1568 …}
      -id: 244969
      -bodyTs: "'1':36 '2':47 'access':184 'add':157 'adher':206 'also':52,82,93,217 'anyth':229 'appeal':107 'approach':41 'avail':125 'beauti':135 'better':187 'client':246 'code':25 'compar':68 'complet':190 'conflict':84 'core':177 'coupl':251 'curv':167 'custom':91 'depend':43 'differ':75 'difficult':67 'document':180 'emac':20,30,105,161 'email':245,258 'even':21 'experienc':83 'figur':72 'final':87 'found':65,171 'friend':23 'goe':230 'granular':95 'hate':219 'help':34 'ide':197 'impact':235 'issu':13 'lack':5 'learn':166 'least':79 'less':94 'level':89,173 'like':118 'linux':128 'm':202 'make':138 'mani':40,56 'multipl':234 'need':152,226 'neomutt':242 'neovim':70,99,159,182,252 'nice':250 'note':239 'number':122 'offer':98 'old':203 'one':131,143,210,222 'option':124 'organ':188 'os':140 'perfect':147 'personali':170 'philosophi':216 'plugin':18,28,46,57,86,179 'prefer':154 'purpos':62 'readabl':185 'regard':10 'reli':220 'right':215 'say':120 'school':204 'see':103 'serv':59 'sever':12,225 'share':191 'side':238 'solut':51 'statement':2 'steep':165 'support':175 'thing':136,211 'tool':223 'tweak':146 'twice':80 'uniform':7 'use':241 'user':150 'vision':193 'world':129 'would':156 'write':45,256 'wrong':231"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834033"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
        date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 244969
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
      +body: """
        > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
        \n
        This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
        \n
        It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703306087 {#1587
        date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1563 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1557 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1613 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1596 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1702 …}
      -id: 245006
      -bodyTs: "'/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':20 '1h':24 'advanc':41 'bad':73 'basic':5 'beyond':3 'bonus':40 'clear':46 'dive':1 'easili':50 'enough':17 'everyth':49 'explan':45 'fight':79 'get':71 'go':36 'habit':74 'help':47,68 'hjkl':6 'knew':53 'long':23,34 'made':30 'much':65 'q':7 'recommend':16 'rememb':48 'save':62 'start':58 'though':8 'time':66 'tutor':35 'tweak':42 've':57 'video':12 'well':29 'would':60 'www.youtube.com':19 'www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':18"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834332"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
        date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703306087 {#1558
        date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 245006
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: """
        > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
        \n
        I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
        Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
        \n
        > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
        \n
        I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
        Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
        \n
        Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
        \n
        Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703340634 {#1683
        date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1686 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1692 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1705 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
      -id: 245858
      -bodyTs: "'/nvim-neorg/neorg)':443 '/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':438 '/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':165 'achiev':315 'act':109 'actual':353 'addit':334 'allow':27,312 'also':414,530 'alway':146 'anoth':186 'anytim':125,292 'app':173,238 'appl':258,260 'appreci':498 'apt':45 'argument':9,60 'aspect':124 'attract':427 'awar':578 'away':291 'back':476 'bad':534 'bare':556 'benefit':451 'beyond':133,226 'bias':582 'big':417 'build':240 'calendar':139 'call':171 'capabl':544 'certain':331 'choos':464 'chose':346 'client':359 'close':187,196 'code':98,245,479 'compar':38,47,257,265 'complex':337 'configur':354,406 'confus':148 'cool':276 'could':471 'coupl':268 'critic':235 'current':83,277 'custom':394 'customiz':388 'describ':318 'develop':431 'differ':90 'do-it-al':210 'door':491 'earlier':384 'easili':474 'editor':52 'either':237 'elisp':14 'emac':5,11,64,104,152,206,224,261,349,355,421,465,473,542 'email':140,352,358 'end':370 'exact':156 'exampl':375 'expect':288 'experi':565 'extrapol':571 'fast':589 'featur':509 'first':101 'freeli':181 'fresh':551 'function':31,252,398 'general':568 'github.com':164,437,442 'github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg)':441 'github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':436 'github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':163 'go':361,475 'goe':132,225 'granular':381 'happi':281 'heard':4 'hehe':273 'higher':378 'i.e':209 'ide':138,223,343,397 'implement':250,507 'impress':102 'instal':552 'interpret':15 'keep':297,521 'keybind':177 'languag':246,480 'layer':335 'level':379,392 'lightweight':588 'like':122 'limit':524 'll':296 'look':91 'lot':548 'lua':488 'm':159,279,577 'main':310 'may':70 'mayb':457 'mention':383 'mind':300 'move':290 'multiplex':113,272 'myriad':29 'need':127,248,527 'negat':234 'neomutt':329,363,385 'neovim':169,208,219,267,409,423,467,517,554 'new':490 'offer':33,404 'often':3 'one':18,184,188,216,333,415,458 'open':489,557 'option':407 'orgmod':412 'origin':494 'overal':559 'peopl':463 'person':564 'philosophi':204 'player':419 'plugin':401 'pose':7 'prefer':584 'pretti':365 'quit':472,546 're':561 'realli':280 'reason':461 'recal':189 'relat':201 'run':168 'see':88,483 'seem':43 'seen':531 'sens':37,255 'share':563 'similar':366,433 'singl':25,176,573,586 'someth':130,448 'soon':293 'speak':74 'specif':151 'star':418 'start':540 'state':193 'switch':142,182,309 'system':523 'talk':389 'task':135,325,587 'termin':112,271,328 'terminal/console':42 'terminolog':153 'text':51 'thing':19,26,217,434,535 'think':57 'though':499 'thunderbird':283,303 'tmux':162 'tool':242,590 'transit':340 'tri':425 'unless':344 'usag':94 'use':63,79,117,302,348,403,486,514 'user':6,429 've':2,145,195 'vim':495 'vision':574 'vs':466 'well':305,411 'window/panel':143 'wonder':54 'workflow':84,317,454 'would':330,450 'wrong':72 'year':67"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6839307"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
        date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 245858
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703365326 {#1626
        date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
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      -id: 246889
      -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6845993"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
        date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 246889
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703387954 {#1734
        date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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        date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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        "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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      -id: 248598
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      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6857305"
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}
 
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3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
  +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
  +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
    \n
    > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
    > \n
    > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
    >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
    > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
    > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
    > \n
    > ---\n
    > \n
    > **Motivation**\n
    > \n
    > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
    > \n
    > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
    > \n
    > **My setup:**\n
    > \n
    > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
    > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
    > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
    > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
    > \n
    > **Questions:**\n
    > \n
    > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
    > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
    > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
    > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
    > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
    >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
    >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
    """
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    date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2092 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2090 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2087 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2337 …}
  +children: [
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: """
        My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
        \n
        I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
        \n
        I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
        """
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        date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834033"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
        date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 244969
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
      +body: """
        > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
        \n
        This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
        \n
        It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834332"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
        date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703306087 {#1558
        date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 245006
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: """
        > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
        \n
        I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
        Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
        \n
        > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
        \n
        I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
        Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
        \n
        Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
        \n
        Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
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        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
        date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
      }
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    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
      }
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1597 …}
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      -id: 246889
      -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6845993"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
        date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 246889
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703387954 {#1734
        date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
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      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
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        date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 247703
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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        date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2453 …}
      -id: 248598
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4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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  +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
  +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
    \n
    > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
    > \n
    > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
    >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
    > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
    > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
    > \n
    > ---\n
    > \n
    > **Motivation**\n
    > \n
    > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
    > \n
    > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
    > \n
    > **My setup:**\n
    > \n
    > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
    > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
    > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
    > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
    > \n
    > **Questions:**\n
    > \n
    > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
    > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
    > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
    > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
    > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
    >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
    >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
    """
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    date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: """
        My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
        \n
        I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
        \n
        I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
        """
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        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834033"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
        date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 244969
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    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
      +body: """
        > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
        \n
        This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
        \n
        It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
        """
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
        date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: """
        > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
        \n
        I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
        Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
        \n
        > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
        \n
        I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
        Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
        \n
        Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
        \n
        Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
        """
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      -bodyTs: "'/nvim-neorg/neorg)':443 '/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':438 '/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':165 'achiev':315 'act':109 'actual':353 'addit':334 'allow':27,312 'also':414,530 'alway':146 'anoth':186 'anytim':125,292 'app':173,238 'appl':258,260 'appreci':498 'apt':45 'argument':9,60 'aspect':124 'attract':427 'awar':578 'away':291 'back':476 'bad':534 'bare':556 'benefit':451 'beyond':133,226 'bias':582 'big':417 'build':240 'calendar':139 'call':171 'capabl':544 'certain':331 'choos':464 'chose':346 'client':359 'close':187,196 'code':98,245,479 'compar':38,47,257,265 'complex':337 'configur':354,406 'confus':148 'cool':276 'could':471 'coupl':268 'critic':235 'current':83,277 'custom':394 'customiz':388 'describ':318 'develop':431 'differ':90 'do-it-al':210 'door':491 'earlier':384 'easili':474 'editor':52 'either':237 'elisp':14 'emac':5,11,64,104,152,206,224,261,349,355,421,465,473,542 'email':140,352,358 'end':370 'exact':156 'exampl':375 'expect':288 'experi':565 'extrapol':571 'fast':589 'featur':509 'first':101 'freeli':181 'fresh':551 'function':31,252,398 'general':568 'github.com':164,437,442 'github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg)':441 'github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':436 'github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':163 'go':361,475 'goe':132,225 'granular':381 'happi':281 'heard':4 'hehe':273 'higher':378 'i.e':209 'ide':138,223,343,397 'implement':250,507 'impress':102 'instal':552 'interpret':15 'keep':297,521 'keybind':177 'languag':246,480 'layer':335 'level':379,392 'lightweight':588 'like':122 'limit':524 'll':296 'look':91 'lot':548 'lua':488 'm':159,279,577 'main':310 'may':70 'mayb':457 'mention':383 'mind':300 'move':290 'multiplex':113,272 'myriad':29 'need':127,248,527 'negat':234 'neomutt':329,363,385 'neovim':169,208,219,267,409,423,467,517,554 'new':490 'offer':33,404 'often':3 'one':18,184,188,216,333,415,458 'open':489,557 'option':407 'orgmod':412 'origin':494 'overal':559 'peopl':463 'person':564 'philosophi':204 'player':419 'plugin':401 'pose':7 'prefer':584 'pretti':365 'quit':472,546 're':561 'realli':280 'reason':461 'recal':189 'relat':201 'run':168 'see':88,483 'seem':43 'seen':531 'sens':37,255 'share':563 'similar':366,433 'singl':25,176,573,586 'someth':130,448 'soon':293 'speak':74 'specif':151 'star':418 'start':540 'state':193 'switch':142,182,309 'system':523 'talk':389 'task':135,325,587 'termin':112,271,328 'terminal/console':42 'terminolog':153 'text':51 'thing':19,26,217,434,535 'think':57 'though':499 'thunderbird':283,303 'tmux':162 'tool':242,590 'transit':340 'tri':425 'unless':344 'usag':94 'use':63,79,117,302,348,403,486,514 'user':6,429 've':2,145,195 'vim':495 'vision':574 'vs':466 'well':305,411 'window/panel':143 'wonder':54 'workflow':84,317,454 'would':330,450 'wrong':72 'year':67"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6839307"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
        date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 245858
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703365326 {#1626
        date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1597 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1731 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1723 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1721 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1728 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1730 …}
      -id: 246889
      -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6845993"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
        date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 246889
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
      +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703387954 {#1734
        date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
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      -id: 247703
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        date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 247703
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
      +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703427036 {#1740
        date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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        "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
        "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
        "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2453 …}
      -id: 248598
      -bodyTs: "'also':20 'alway':7 'anyway':52 'app':48 'constant':25 'curious':41 'doubt':51 'emac':58 'evolut':26 'good':29 'happi':8 'hear':10 'heard':61 'inform':4 'know':31,66 'limit':34 'm':6 'make':18 'natur':43 'neovim':32,57 'other':12 'prepar':39 'progress':19 'thank':1 'tri':46,55 've':54 'vi':56 'vs':63 'workflow':23"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6857305"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703427036 {#1707
        date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 248598
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  +cross: false
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9648332"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
    date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
    +type: "article"
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1703306087 {#1587
          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
        ]
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        -id: 245006
        -bodyTs: "'/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':20 '1h':24 'advanc':41 'bad':73 'basic':5 'beyond':3 'bonus':40 'clear':46 'dive':1 'easili':50 'enough':17 'everyth':49 'explan':45 'fight':79 'get':71 'go':36 'habit':74 'help':47,68 'hjkl':6 'knew':53 'long':23,34 'made':30 'much':65 'q':7 'recommend':16 'rememb':48 'save':62 'start':58 'though':8 'time':66 'tutor':35 'tweak':42 've':57 'video':12 'well':29 'would':60 'www.youtube.com':19 'www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':18"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834332"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703306087 {#1558
          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245006
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
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        +tags: null
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1686 …}
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703365326 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1597 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1731 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1723 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1721 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1728 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1730 …}
        -id: 246889
        -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6845993"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703387954 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1715 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
        -id: 247703
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        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703387954 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 247703
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703427036 {#1740
          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2422 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2453 …}
        -id: 248598
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        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6857305"
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    -id: 24132
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    +cross: false
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
  +body: """
    My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
    \n
    I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
    \n
    I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
    """
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  -bodyTs: "'1':36 '2':47 'access':184 'add':157 'adher':206 'also':52,82,93,217 'anyth':229 'appeal':107 'approach':41 'avail':125 'beauti':135 'better':187 'client':246 'code':25 'compar':68 'complet':190 'conflict':84 'core':177 'coupl':251 'curv':167 'custom':91 'depend':43 'differ':75 'difficult':67 'document':180 'emac':20,30,105,161 'email':245,258 'even':21 'experienc':83 'figur':72 'final':87 'found':65,171 'friend':23 'goe':230 'granular':95 'hate':219 'help':34 'ide':197 'impact':235 'issu':13 'lack':5 'learn':166 'least':79 'less':94 'level':89,173 'like':118 'linux':128 'm':202 'make':138 'mani':40,56 'multipl':234 'need':152,226 'neomutt':242 'neovim':70,99,159,182,252 'nice':250 'note':239 'number':122 'offer':98 'old':203 'one':131,143,210,222 'option':124 'organ':188 'os':140 'perfect':147 'personali':170 'philosophi':216 'plugin':18,28,46,57,86,179 'prefer':154 'purpos':62 'readabl':185 'regard':10 'reli':220 'right':215 'say':120 'school':204 'see':103 'serv':59 'sever':12,225 'share':191 'side':238 'solut':51 'statement':2 'steep':165 'support':175 'thing':136,211 'tool':223 'tweak':146 'twice':80 'uniform':7 'use':241 'user':150 'vision':193 'world':129 'would':156 'write':45,256 'wrong':231"
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7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
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        -id: 246889
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          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1703427036 {#1740
          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
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    +cross: false
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    +downVotes: 0
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
  +body: """
    My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
    \n
    I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
    \n
    I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
    """
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    date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2092 …}
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    +children: [
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703340634 {#1683
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1686 …}
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        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1705 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
        -id: 245858
        -bodyTs: "'/nvim-neorg/neorg)':443 '/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':438 '/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':165 'achiev':315 'act':109 'actual':353 'addit':334 'allow':27,312 'also':414,530 'alway':146 'anoth':186 'anytim':125,292 'app':173,238 'appl':258,260 'appreci':498 'apt':45 'argument':9,60 'aspect':124 'attract':427 'awar':578 'away':291 'back':476 'bad':534 'bare':556 'benefit':451 'beyond':133,226 'bias':582 'big':417 'build':240 'calendar':139 'call':171 'capabl':544 'certain':331 'choos':464 'chose':346 'client':359 'close':187,196 'code':98,245,479 'compar':38,47,257,265 'complex':337 'configur':354,406 'confus':148 'cool':276 'could':471 'coupl':268 'critic':235 'current':83,277 'custom':394 'customiz':388 'describ':318 'develop':431 'differ':90 'do-it-al':210 'door':491 'earlier':384 'easili':474 'editor':52 'either':237 'elisp':14 'emac':5,11,64,104,152,206,224,261,349,355,421,465,473,542 'email':140,352,358 'end':370 'exact':156 'exampl':375 'expect':288 'experi':565 'extrapol':571 'fast':589 'featur':509 'first':101 'freeli':181 'fresh':551 'function':31,252,398 'general':568 'github.com':164,437,442 'github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg)':441 'github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':436 'github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':163 'go':361,475 'goe':132,225 'granular':381 'happi':281 'heard':4 'hehe':273 'higher':378 'i.e':209 'ide':138,223,343,397 'implement':250,507 'impress':102 'instal':552 'interpret':15 'keep':297,521 'keybind':177 'languag':246,480 'layer':335 'level':379,392 'lightweight':588 'like':122 'limit':524 'll':296 'look':91 'lot':548 'lua':488 'm':159,279,577 'main':310 'may':70 'mayb':457 'mention':383 'mind':300 'move':290 'multiplex':113,272 'myriad':29 'need':127,248,527 'negat':234 'neomutt':329,363,385 'neovim':169,208,219,267,409,423,467,517,554 'new':490 'offer':33,404 'often':3 'one':18,184,188,216,333,415,458 'open':489,557 'option':407 'orgmod':412 'origin':494 'overal':559 'peopl':463 'person':564 'philosophi':204 'player':419 'plugin':401 'pose':7 'prefer':584 'pretti':365 'quit':472,546 're':561 'realli':280 'reason':461 'recal':189 'relat':201 'run':168 'see':88,483 'seem':43 'seen':531 'sens':37,255 'share':563 'similar':366,433 'singl':25,176,573,586 'someth':130,448 'soon':293 'speak':74 'specif':151 'star':418 'start':540 'state':193 'switch':142,182,309 'system':523 'talk':389 'task':135,325,587 'termin':112,271,328 'terminal/console':42 'terminolog':153 'text':51 'thing':19,26,217,434,535 'think':57 'though':499 'thunderbird':283,303 'tmux':162 'tool':242,590 'transit':340 'tri':425 'unless':344 'usag':94 'use':63,79,117,302,348,403,486,514 'user':6,429 've':2,145,195 'vim':495 'vision':574 'vs':466 'well':305,411 'window/panel':143 'wonder':54 'workflow':84,317,454 'would':330,450 'wrong':72 'year':67"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6839307"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703365326 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1597 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1731 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1723 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1721 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1728 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1730 …}
        -id: 246889
        -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6845993"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703387954 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1715 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
        -id: 247703
        -bodyTs: "'1':49 '2':62 '3':68 '4':89 'alway':3 'anoth':29 'app':20,70 'back':33 'bit':58 'chang':86 'come':32 'curious':67 'difficult':4 'easili':24 'everyth':110 'experi':61 'find':6 'fun':52 'general':66 'given':80 'go':45 'good':8 'kid':101 'later':34 'learn':55 'like':99 'linux':43,63,90 'littl':57 'mani':94 'marri':17 'may':71,85 'mayb':31 'offer':91 'one':27 'option':95 'point':10 're':15 'rememb':12 'rout':47 'seen':40 'start':9 'store':105 'suitabl':74 'switch':25 'time':81,88 'toy':104 'tri':109 'unleash':100 'us':92 'user':44,64 've':39 'want':107 'workflow':77,84 'year':37"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703387954 {#1732
          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 247703
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703427036 {#1740
          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2422 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2453 …}
        -id: 248598
        -bodyTs: "'also':20 'alway':7 'anyway':52 'app':48 'constant':25 'curious':41 'doubt':51 'emac':58 'evolut':26 'good':29 'happi':8 'hear':10 'heard':61 'inform':4 'know':31,66 'limit':34 'm':6 'make':18 'natur':43 'neovim':32,57 'other':12 'prepar':39 'progress':19 'thank':1 'tri':46,55 've':54 'vi':56 'vs':63 'workflow':23"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6857305"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703427036 {#1707
          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 248598
      }
    ]
    -id: 24132
    -titleTs: "'emac':10 'find':5 'ide':7 'input':3 'involv':9 'look':1 'regard':4 'spoiler':8 'vim':12"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1703376740
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9648332"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
  +body: """
    My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
    \n
    I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
    \n
    I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 2
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703304201 {#1440
    date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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  +ip: null
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  +mentions: [
    "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
    "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1651 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1655 …}
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  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
    date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 244969
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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10 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
    \n
    This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
    \n
    It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
    """
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    date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
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    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/nvim-neorg/neorg)':443 '/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':438 '/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':165 'achiev':315 'act':109 'actual':353 'addit':334 'allow':27,312 'also':414,530 'alway':146 'anoth':186 'anytim':125,292 'app':173,238 'appl':258,260 'appreci':498 'apt':45 'argument':9,60 'aspect':124 'attract':427 'awar':578 'away':291 'back':476 'bad':534 'bare':556 'benefit':451 'beyond':133,226 'bias':582 'big':417 'build':240 'calendar':139 'call':171 'capabl':544 'certain':331 'choos':464 'chose':346 'client':359 'close':187,196 'code':98,245,479 'compar':38,47,257,265 'complex':337 'configur':354,406 'confus':148 'cool':276 'could':471 'coupl':268 'critic':235 'current':83,277 'custom':394 'customiz':388 'describ':318 'develop':431 'differ':90 'do-it-al':210 'door':491 'earlier':384 'easili':474 'editor':52 'either':237 'elisp':14 'emac':5,11,64,104,152,206,224,261,349,355,421,465,473,542 'email':140,352,358 'end':370 'exact':156 'exampl':375 'expect':288 'experi':565 'extrapol':571 'fast':589 'featur':509 'first':101 'freeli':181 'fresh':551 'function':31,252,398 'general':568 'github.com':164,437,442 'github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg)':441 'github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode)':436 'github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/getting-started)':163 'go':361,475 'goe':132,225 'granular':381 'happi':281 'heard':4 'hehe':273 'higher':378 'i.e':209 'ide':138,223,343,397 'implement':250,507 'impress':102 'instal':552 'interpret':15 'keep':297,521 'keybind':177 'languag':246,480 'layer':335 'level':379,392 'lightweight':588 'like':122 'limit':524 'll':296 'look':91 'lot':548 'lua':488 'm':159,279,577 'main':310 'may':70 'mayb':457 'mention':383 'mind':300 'move':290 'multiplex':113,272 'myriad':29 'need':127,248,527 'negat':234 'neomutt':329,363,385 'neovim':169,208,219,267,409,423,467,517,554 'new':490 'offer':33,404 'often':3 'one':18,184,188,216,333,415,458 'open':489,557 'option':407 'orgmod':412 'origin':494 'overal':559 'peopl':463 'person':564 'philosophi':204 'player':419 'plugin':401 'pose':7 'prefer':584 'pretti':365 'quit':472,546 're':561 'realli':280 'reason':461 'recal':189 'relat':201 'run':168 'see':88,483 'seem':43 'seen':531 'sens':37,255 'share':563 'similar':366,433 'singl':25,176,573,586 'someth':130,448 'soon':293 'speak':74 'specif':151 'star':418 'start':540 'state':193 'switch':142,182,309 'system':523 'talk':389 'task':135,325,587 'termin':112,271,328 'terminal/console':42 'terminolog':153 'text':51 'thing':19,26,217,434,535 'think':57 'though':499 'thunderbird':283,303 'tmux':162 'tool':242,590 'transit':340 'tri':425 'unless':344 'usag':94 'use':63,79,117,302,348,403,486,514 'user':6,429 've':2,145,195 'vim':495 'vision':574 'vs':466 'well':305,411 'window/panel':143 'wonder':54 'workflow':84,317,454 'would':330,450 'wrong':72 'year':67"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6839307"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703365326 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1597 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1731 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1723 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1721 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1728 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1730 …}
        -id: 246889
        -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6845993"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703387954 {#1734
          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1724 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1715 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
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        -id: 247703
        -bodyTs: "'1':49 '2':62 '3':68 '4':89 'alway':3 'anoth':29 'app':20,70 'back':33 'bit':58 'chang':86 'come':32 'curious':67 'difficult':4 'easili':24 'everyth':110 'experi':61 'find':6 'fun':52 'general':66 'given':80 'go':45 'good':8 'kid':101 'later':34 'learn':55 'like':99 'linux':43,63,90 'littl':57 'mani':94 'marri':17 'may':71,85 'mayb':31 'offer':91 'one':27 'option':95 'point':10 're':15 'rememb':12 'rout':47 'seen':40 'start':9 'store':105 'suitabl':74 'switch':25 'time':81,88 'toy':104 'tri':109 'unleash':100 'us':92 'user':44,64 've':39 'want':107 'workflow':77,84 'year':37"
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 247703
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703427036 {#1740
          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2411 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2422 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2458 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2456 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2453 …}
        -id: 248598
        -bodyTs: "'also':20 'alway':7 'anyway':52 'app':48 'constant':25 'curious':41 'doubt':51 'emac':58 'evolut':26 'good':29 'happi':8 'hear':10 'heard':61 'inform':4 'know':31,66 'limit':34 'm':6 'make':18 'natur':43 'neovim':32,57 'other':12 'prepar':39 'progress':19 'thank':1 'tri':46,55 've':54 'vi':56 'vs':63 'workflow':23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6857305"
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          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 248598
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    -id: 24132
    -titleTs: "'emac':10 'find':5 'ide':7 'input':3 'involv':9 'look':1 'regard':4 'spoiler':8 'vim':12"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1703376740
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9648332"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
  +body: """
    > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
    \n
    This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
    \n
    It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 2
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703306087 {#1587
    date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
  }
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  +mentions: [
    "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
    "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1563 …}
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  -id: 245006
  -bodyTs: "'/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':20 '1h':24 'advanc':41 'bad':73 'basic':5 'beyond':3 'bonus':40 'clear':46 'dive':1 'easili':50 'enough':17 'everyth':49 'explan':45 'fight':79 'get':71 'go':36 'habit':74 'help':47,68 'hjkl':6 'knew':53 'long':23,34 'made':30 'much':65 'q':7 'recommend':16 'rememb':48 'save':62 'start':58 'though':8 'time':66 'tutor':35 'tweak':42 've':57 'video':12 'well':29 'would':60 'www.youtube.com':19 'www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':18"
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    date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
  }
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}
 
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12 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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    -bodyTs: "'/89luca89/distrobox)':399 '/astronvim/astronvim),':713 '/doomemacs/doomemacs)':689 '/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux).':414 '/lazyvim/lazyvim),':717 '/lunarvim/lunarvim)':721 '/nvchad/nvchad).':726 '/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)':7 '/syl20bnr/spacemacs)?':694 '/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2fm%2f07zh7,%2fg%2f11f3w6p14d,%2fm%2f01yp0m&hl=en-us)':552 '/ublue-os/startingpoint)':364 'absent':103 'access':305 'advanc':110 'allow':201 'almost':273 'also':296 'alway':312 'and/or':195,482,651 'anyth':124 'approach':19 'astronvim':710 'atom':155 'attain':116 'bad':180 'bash':472 'basic':98 'behav':639 'benefit':299 'best':18,38,339,644 'big':705 'blog.niklas.tech':413 'blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux).':412 'c':463 'ceas':243 'code':157 'come':547 'communiti':132,595 'config':476,650 'consid':63,520,591 'contain':427 'content':172 'continu':205 'cross':2 'cross-post':1 'custom':354 'decad':249 'decent':673 'declin':579 'default':105 'definit':450 'degre':46 'develop':390 'distrobox':396 'dockerfil':474 'doesn':199,319 'doom':685 'drop':88 'drop-in':87 'edit':471 'editor':28 'either':259,659 'emac':58,81,225,332,446,568,684,686 'engag':469 'environ':391 'especi':590 'eventu':295 'ever':559 'ever-popular':558 'everi':27 'evil':335,453 'exist':245 'expect':80,500 'experi':153 'extens':198,496,610 'extent':402 'extra':381 'far':137 'fedora':377 'feel':430 'file':477,486 'first':509,534 'flame':129 'fluenci':297 'follow':16 'forc':188,321 'forebod':541 'found':35 'free':431 'function':101,111 'furthermor':263,467 'futur':589 'game':285 'general':171 'github.com':363,398,688,693,712,716,720,725 'github.com/89luca89/distrobox)':397 'github.com/astronvim/astronvim),':711 'github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs)':687 'github.com/lazyvim/lazyvim),':715 'github.com/lunarvim/lunarvim)':719 'github.com/nvchad/nvchad).':724 'github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)?':692 'github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint)':362 'go':444 'good':441 'googl':548 'grow':220 'hand':564 'honest':237 'howev':41,640,666 'ide':93,100,162,191,275 'ide-funct':99 'ideal':655 'imag':355 'implement':342 'improv':281 'instal':316 'interest':30,122,212 'interpret':531 'invest':217 'issu':502 'jetbrain':161 'json':491 'keep':145 'keybind':266 'kind':140 'kits/distributions':653 'known':68 'lack':196 'latex':481 'lazyvim':714 'learn':74 'least':294,439 'leav':178 'lemmi':134 'lemmy.ml':6 'lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)':5 'less':570 'let':143 'lie':630 'life':72 'lifelin':599 'lifetim':194 'like':10,56,163,386,458 'linux':475 'liter':79,597,636 'll':242 'local':392,426 'long':215,587 'long-tim':586 'lot':702 'love':255 'lunarvim':718 'm':187,211,265,284,303,315,326,341,347,351,417 'make':514,637 'markdown':483 'marri':419 'might':112,505 'motiv':149 'mouth':184 'nativ':345 'neo':60,83,227,555 'neovim':328,529,698 'net':289 'net-posit':288 'nix':489 'nvchad':723 'offer':276,333,681 'one':260,408,612,634,706,728 'outlin':409 'outsid':343 'oversimplif':371 'pass':230 'perhap':108,336 'platform':678 'pleas':429 'point':665,669 'popular':560,571,574 'posit':290 'possibl':455 'post':3 'power':625 'prefer':615 'premad':649 'premis':12 'primarili':631 'probabl':21 'process':75 'product':292 'provid':671 'pycharm':164 'python':464 'question':508 'random':307 'recommend':433 'regard':584,683,697 'relat':569 'reli':451 'remot':126,304 'replac':90 'repres':53 'resembl':127 'respons':204 'rider':166 'rust':466 'schism':535 'script':473 'seem':267,575,707 'sens':515 'server':308 'setup':349 'showcas':674 'silverblu':378 'similar':405 'simpli':113 'singl':338 'slight':578 'someth':435 'somewhat':270 'spacemac':691 'specif':422 'split':525 'start':257,664 'starter':652 'startingpoint':361 'step':404 'suggest':553 'suit':641 'support':278 'switch':190 'tast':181 'templat':366 'temporari':660 'test':23,48,232 'text':478 'thank':317 'therefor':645 'think':240 'thrive':594 'time':73,216,234,588 'trend':549 'trends.google.com':551 'trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2fm%2f07zh7,%2fg%2f11f3w6p14d,%2fm%2f01yp0m&hl=en-us)':550 'two':522 'ubiquit':271 'ublu':357 'ublue.it':358 'unawar':369 'understand':622 'upcom':248 'use':206,258,324,359,395,403,460,608,647,658 'util':425 've':34,151,169 'vi':264,283,314,325,340,346 'vim':61,84,228,527,556 'vs':156 'war':130 'way':148,423 'whenev':185,301 'wonder':43 'work':37 'workflow':643 'worri':582 'would':9,51,254,372,385,457 'written':479,487 'wrong':507 'yet':330,545"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1703376740
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9648332"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
  +body: """
    > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
    \n
    This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
    \n
    It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
    """
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    date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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    "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
    "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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  -id: 245006
  -bodyTs: "'/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':20 '1h':24 'advanc':41 'bad':73 'basic':5 'beyond':3 'bonus':40 'clear':46 'dive':1 'easili':50 'enough':17 'everyth':49 'explan':45 'fight':79 'get':71 'go':36 'habit':74 'help':47,68 'hjkl':6 'knew':53 'long':23,34 'made':30 'much':65 'q':7 'recommend':16 'rememb':48 'save':62 'start':58 'though':8 'time':66 'tutor':35 'tweak':42 've':57 'video':12 'well':29 'would':60 'www.youtube.com':19 'www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':18"
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834332"
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    date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
  }
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}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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    +hasEmbed: false
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 244969
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
        ]
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        -id: 245006
        -bodyTs: "'/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':20 '1h':24 'advanc':41 'bad':73 'basic':5 'beyond':3 'bonus':40 'clear':46 'dive':1 'easili':50 'enough':17 'everyth':49 'explan':45 'fight':79 'get':71 'go':36 'habit':74 'help':47,68 'hjkl':6 'knew':53 'long':23,34 'made':30 'much':65 'q':7 'recommend':16 'rememb':48 'save':62 'start':58 'though':8 'time':66 'tutor':35 'tweak':42 've':57 'video':12 'well':29 'would':60 'www.youtube.com':19 'www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8xtnxutvto':18"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703306087 {#1558
          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245006
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
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        -id: 246889
        -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
  +body: """
    > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
    \n
    I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
    Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
    \n
    > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
    \n
    I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
    Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
    \n
    Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
    \n
    Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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     …2
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  +body: """
    > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
    \n
    I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
    Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
    \n
    > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
    \n
    I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
    Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
    \n
    Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
    \n
    Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
    """
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16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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  +body: """
    > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
    \n
    I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
    Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
    \n
    > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
    \n
    I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
    Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
    \n
    Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
    \n
    Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
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    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 244969
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
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      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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  +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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19 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 244969
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834332"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
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      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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          date: 2023-12-24 15:10:36.0 +01:00
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    -id: 24132
    -titleTs: "'emac':10 'find':5 'ide':7 'input':3 'involv':9 'look':1 'regard':4 'spoiler':8 'vim':12"
    -bodyTs: "'/89luca89/distrobox)':399 '/astronvim/astronvim),':713 '/doomemacs/doomemacs)':689 '/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux).':414 '/lazyvim/lazyvim),':717 '/lunarvim/lunarvim)':721 '/nvchad/nvchad).':726 '/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)':7 '/syl20bnr/spacemacs)?':694 '/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2fm%2f07zh7,%2fg%2f11f3w6p14d,%2fm%2f01yp0m&hl=en-us)':552 '/ublue-os/startingpoint)':364 'absent':103 'access':305 'advanc':110 'allow':201 'almost':273 'also':296 'alway':312 'and/or':195,482,651 'anyth':124 'approach':19 'astronvim':710 'atom':155 'attain':116 'bad':180 'bash':472 'basic':98 'behav':639 'benefit':299 'best':18,38,339,644 'big':705 'blog.niklas.tech':413 'blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux).':412 'c':463 'ceas':243 'code':157 'come':547 'communiti':132,595 'config':476,650 'consid':63,520,591 'contain':427 'content':172 'continu':205 'cross':2 'cross-post':1 'custom':354 'decad':249 'decent':673 'declin':579 'default':105 'definit':450 'degre':46 'develop':390 'distrobox':396 'dockerfil':474 'doesn':199,319 'doom':685 'drop':88 'drop-in':87 'edit':471 'editor':28 'either':259,659 'emac':58,81,225,332,446,568,684,686 'engag':469 'environ':391 'especi':590 'eventu':295 'ever':559 'ever-popular':558 'everi':27 'evil':335,453 'exist':245 'expect':80,500 'experi':153 'extens':198,496,610 'extent':402 'extra':381 'far':137 'fedora':377 'feel':430 'file':477,486 'first':509,534 'flame':129 'fluenci':297 'follow':16 'forc':188,321 'forebod':541 'found':35 'free':431 'function':101,111 'furthermor':263,467 'futur':589 'game':285 'general':171 'github.com':363,398,688,693,712,716,720,725 'github.com/89luca89/distrobox)':397 'github.com/astronvim/astronvim),':711 'github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs)':687 'github.com/lazyvim/lazyvim),':715 'github.com/lunarvim/lunarvim)':719 'github.com/nvchad/nvchad).':724 'github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)?':692 'github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint)':362 'go':444 'good':441 'googl':548 'grow':220 'hand':564 'honest':237 'howev':41,640,666 'ide':93,100,162,191,275 'ide-funct':99 'ideal':655 'imag':355 'implement':342 'improv':281 'instal':316 'interest':30,122,212 'interpret':531 'invest':217 'issu':502 'jetbrain':161 'json':491 'keep':145 'keybind':266 'kind':140 'kits/distributions':653 'known':68 'lack':196 'latex':481 'lazyvim':714 'learn':74 'least':294,439 'leav':178 'lemmi':134 'lemmy.ml':6 'lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)':5 'less':570 'let':143 'lie':630 'life':72 'lifelin':599 'lifetim':194 'like':10,56,163,386,458 'linux':475 'liter':79,597,636 'll':242 'local':392,426 'long':215,587 'long-tim':586 'lot':702 'love':255 'lunarvim':718 'm':187,211,265,284,303,315,326,341,347,351,417 'make':514,637 'markdown':483 'marri':419 'might':112,505 'motiv':149 'mouth':184 'nativ':345 'neo':60,83,227,555 'neovim':328,529,698 'net':289 'net-posit':288 'nix':489 'nvchad':723 'offer':276,333,681 'one':260,408,612,634,706,728 'outlin':409 'outsid':343 'oversimplif':371 'pass':230 'perhap':108,336 'platform':678 'pleas':429 'point':665,669 'popular':560,571,574 'posit':290 'possibl':455 'post':3 'power':625 'prefer':615 'premad':649 'premis':12 'primarili':631 'probabl':21 'process':75 'product':292 'provid':671 'pycharm':164 'python':464 'question':508 'random':307 'recommend':433 'regard':584,683,697 'relat':569 'reli':451 'remot':126,304 'replac':90 'repres':53 'resembl':127 'respons':204 'rider':166 'rust':466 'schism':535 'script':473 'seem':267,575,707 'sens':515 'server':308 'setup':349 'showcas':674 'silverblu':378 'similar':405 'simpli':113 'singl':338 'slight':578 'someth':435 'somewhat':270 'spacemac':691 'specif':422 'split':525 'start':257,664 'starter':652 'startingpoint':361 'step':404 'suggest':553 'suit':641 'support':278 'switch':190 'tast':181 'templat':366 'temporari':660 'test':23,48,232 'text':478 'thank':317 'therefor':645 'think':240 'thrive':594 'time':73,216,234,588 'trend':549 'trends.google.com':551 'trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2fm%2f07zh7,%2fg%2f11f3w6p14d,%2fm%2f01yp0m&hl=en-us)':550 'two':522 'ubiquit':271 'ublu':357 'ublue.it':358 'unawar':369 'understand':622 'upcom':248 'use':206,258,324,359,395,403,460,608,647,658 'util':425 've':34,151,169 'vi':264,283,314,325,340,346 'vim':61,84,228,527,556 'vs':156 'war':130 'way':148,423 'whenev':185,301 'wonder':43 'work':37 'workflow':643 'worri':582 'would':9,51,254,372,385,457 'written':479,487 'wrong':507 'yet':330,545"
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9648332"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
  +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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    "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
    "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
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    date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 246889
}
 
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20 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 244969
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          "@throwawayish@lemmy.ml"
          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6834332"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706726984 {#1554
          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 247703
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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    +cross: false
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703290340 {#1612
      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
  +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
  +lang: "en"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
    date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 246889
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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  +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6839307"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703365326 {#1626
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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  +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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    "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1733 …}
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24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1661 …}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 244969
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:34:47.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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          "@wolf@lemmy.zip"
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          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 246889
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464 …}
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        +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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      date: 2023-12-23 01:12:20.0 +01:00
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  +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2037 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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          "@wwwgem@lemmy.ml"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703304201 {#1697
          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 244969
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1566 …}
        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          "@atzanteol@sh.itjust.works"
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          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/6839307"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 246889
        -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703365326 {#1599
          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:19:14.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465}
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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  +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2094 …}
    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
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        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
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        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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  +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465
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    +slug: "Looking-for-input-regarding-finding-an-IDE-spoilers-involves-Emacs"
    +title: "Looking for input regarding finding an IDE (spoilers: involves Emacs and Vim)"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      cross-posted from: [lemmy.ml/post/9648279](https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279)\n
      \n
      > I would like to premise this with the following:\n
      > \n
      > - The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I’ve found what works best for me. \n
      >     - However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.\n
      > - I don’t literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.\n
      > - I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let’s keep it that way 😜.\n
      > \n
      > ---\n
      > \n
      > **Motivation**\n
      > \n
      > I’ve had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains’ IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I’ve been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I’m forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn’t allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I’m interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don’t think they’ll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that’s why I would love to start using either one of them.\n
      > \n
      > Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I’m remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn’t force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.\n
      > \n
      > **My setup:**\n
      > \n
      > - I’m on a custom image of [uBlue](https://ublue.it) using their [startingpoint](https://github.com/ublue-os/startingpoint) as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.\n
      > - As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used [Distrobox](https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox) to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over [here](https://blog.niklas.tech/intellij-and-java-on-immutable-linux). But I’m not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that’s at least as good.\n
      > - If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.\n
      > - If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don’t expect any issues, but I might be wrong.\n
      > \n
      > **Questions:**\n
      > \n
      > - First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?\n
      > - Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what’s yet to come?\n
      > - [Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F07zh7,%2Fg%2F11f3w6p14d,%2Fm%2F01yp0m&hl=en-US) suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.\n
      > - For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?\n
      > - While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each *‘platform’* has to offer. So: \n
      >     - Regarding Emacs; [Doom Emacs](https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs) or [Spacemacs](https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs)? And why?\n
      >     - Regarding Neovim; there are a lot, but the big ones seem to be [AstroNvim](https://github.com/AstroNvim/AstroNvim), [LazyVim](https://github.com/LazyVim/LazyVim), [LunarVim](https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim) and [NvChad](https://github.com/NvChad/NvChad). Which one and why?
      """
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      date: 2024-02-28 01:09:23.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1615
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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        +body: """
          My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.\n
          \n
          I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.\n
          \n
          I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
          """
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          date: 2023-12-23 05:03:21.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1565
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        +body: """
          > Dive in beyond the basic “hjkl:q” though.\n
          \n
          This is a video I can’t recommend enough: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XtNXutVto>It’s long (&gt;1h) but it’s very well made.\n
          \n
          It’s a long tutor go through with some bonus advanced tweak, and the explanations clearly helps remembering everything easily. If I knew it when I’ve started that would have saved me so much time and helped me from getting into bad habits I then had to fight against.
          """
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          date: 2024-01-31 19:49:44.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
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        +body: """
          > I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.\n
          \n
          I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with [Tmux ](https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/Getting-Started) where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…  \n
          Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (*i.e.* do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.\n
          \n
          > Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.\n
          \n
          I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.  \n
          Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.\n
          \n
          Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing [here](https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode) or [there](https://github.com/nvim-neorg/neorg) but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)\n
          \n
          Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703340634 {#1687
          date: 2023-12-23 15:10:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 245858
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1618
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625 …}
        +body: "Do you have any experience with neovim? I’m certainly not a Python programmer but I’m doing simple things for fun and so far neovim served me very well. If I eventually go deeper in Python I would be interested to know the limitations of neovim beforehand."
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        -id: 246889
        -bodyTs: "'beforehand':48 'certain':10 'deeper':35 'eventu':33 'experi':5 'far':25 'fun':22 'go':34 'interest':41 'know':43 'limit':45 'm':9,17 'neovim':7,26,47 'programm':14 'python':13,37 'serv':27 'simpl':19 'thing':20 'well':30 'would':39"
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          date: 2023-12-23 22:02:06.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 246889
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1727
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1581 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1656 …}
        +body: "It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2465}
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1551 …}
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  +body: "Thanks for the information. I’m always happy to hear from others because that’s how I make progress. Also with my workflow in constant evolution it’s good to know neovim’s limitations so I can be prepared. Being curious by nature I will try other apps with no doubts anyway. I’ve tried vi, neovim, emacs, but only heard of VS so who knows…"
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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29 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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30 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details