GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@LeFantome@programming.dev?p=4

Response
200 OK
IP
3.224.215.150
Profiled on
Token
e4b5b2

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 0.20 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.04 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2551 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2624 …}
  +slug: "GIMP-3-0-finally-has-a-release-schedule"
  +title: "GIMP 3.0 finally has a release schedule"
  +url: "https://librearts.org/2023/11/gimp-3-0-roadmap/"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 46
  +favouriteCount: 524
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700957184 {#2253
    date: 2023-11-26 01:06:24.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2623 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2621 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2618 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2652 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2648 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2317 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2317 …}
      +body: """
        What is the March deadline?\n
        \n
        I thought they were feature freezing in December for a release in May.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 4
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700842987 {#2305
        date: 2023-11-24 17:23:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@reddit_sux@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2280 …}
      -id: 159036
      -bodyTs: "'deadlin':5 'decemb':13 'featur':10 'freez':11 'march':4 'may':18 'releas':16 'thought':7"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5130802"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700842987 {#2304
        date: 2023-11-24 17:23:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 159036
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2279
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        I realize that the major point of GIMP 3 is the port to GTK3. That said, I feel like colour spaces are what people have been waiting for and probably the most significant deficiency that keeps GIMP from being treated as a professional tool.\n
        \n
        If they are really this close, why not set the GIMP 3 release date for when colour management is ready?\n
        \n
        Non-destructive editing will be huge as well. GIMP 3 is really going to be a crazy leap forward. It is going to be amazing to finally get access to all this work that has been walled off for decades.\n
        \n
        The bug situation sounds terrible. Honestly though, they should just get 3 out and then make bug fixing the number one job until it gets into better shape.\n
        \n
        Not only is it a small team but right now there are basically two different projects ( 2 and 3 ). With only one code base, perhaps the pace of progress can improve.\n
        \n
        Hopefully the move to GTK4 is easier.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 32
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701442596 {#2278
        date: 2023-12-01 15:56:36.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2199 …}
      -id: 159072
      -bodyTs: "'2':150 '3':9,56,75,117,152 'access':94 'amaz':90 'base':157 'basic':146 'better':132 'bug':107,122 'close':50 'code':156 'colour':20,61 'crazi':82 'date':58 'decad':105 'defici':34 'destruct':67 'differ':148 'easier':171 'edit':68 'feel':18 'final':92 'fix':123 'forward':84 'get':93,116,130 'gimp':8,37,55,74 'go':78,87 'gtk3':14 'gtk4':169 'honest':111 'hope':165 'huge':71 'improv':164 'job':127 'keep':36 'leap':83 'like':19 'major':5 'make':121 'manag':62 'move':167 'non':66 'non-destruct':65 'number':125 'one':126,155 'pace':160 'peopl':24 'perhap':158 'point':6 'port':12 'probabl':30 'profession':43 'progress':162 'project':149 'readi':64 'realiz':2 'realli':48,77 'releas':57 'right':142 'said':16 'set':53 'shape':133 'signific':33 'situat':108 'small':139 'sound':109 'space':21 'team':140 'terribl':110 'though':112 'tool':44 'treat':40 'two':147 'wait':27 'wall':102 'well':73 'work':98"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5131069"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700843641 {#2276
        date: 2023-11-24 17:34:01.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 159072
    }
  ]
  -id: 16302
  -titleTs: "'3.0':2 'final':3 'gimp':1 'releas':6 'schedul':7"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700924752
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/6773814"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700838352 {#2576
    date: 2023-11-24 16:05:52.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2551 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2624 …}
  +slug: "GIMP-3-0-finally-has-a-release-schedule"
  +title: "GIMP 3.0 finally has a release schedule"
  +url: "https://librearts.org/2023/11/gimp-3-0-roadmap/"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 46
  +favouriteCount: 524
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700957184 {#2253
    date: 2023-11-26 01:06:24.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2623 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2621 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2618 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2652 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2648 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2317 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2317 …}
      +body: """
        What is the March deadline?\n
        \n
        I thought they were feature freezing in December for a release in May.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 4
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700842987 {#2305
        date: 2023-11-24 17:23:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@reddit_sux@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2280 …}
      -id: 159036
      -bodyTs: "'deadlin':5 'decemb':13 'featur':10 'freez':11 'march':4 'may':18 'releas':16 'thought':7"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5130802"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700842987 {#2304
        date: 2023-11-24 17:23:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 159036
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2279
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        I realize that the major point of GIMP 3 is the port to GTK3. That said, I feel like colour spaces are what people have been waiting for and probably the most significant deficiency that keeps GIMP from being treated as a professional tool.\n
        \n
        If they are really this close, why not set the GIMP 3 release date for when colour management is ready?\n
        \n
        Non-destructive editing will be huge as well. GIMP 3 is really going to be a crazy leap forward. It is going to be amazing to finally get access to all this work that has been walled off for decades.\n
        \n
        The bug situation sounds terrible. Honestly though, they should just get 3 out and then make bug fixing the number one job until it gets into better shape.\n
        \n
        Not only is it a small team but right now there are basically two different projects ( 2 and 3 ). With only one code base, perhaps the pace of progress can improve.\n
        \n
        Hopefully the move to GTK4 is easier.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 32
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1701442596 {#2278
        date: 2023-12-01 15:56:36.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2199 …}
      -id: 159072
      -bodyTs: "'2':150 '3':9,56,75,117,152 'access':94 'amaz':90 'base':157 'basic':146 'better':132 'bug':107,122 'close':50 'code':156 'colour':20,61 'crazi':82 'date':58 'decad':105 'defici':34 'destruct':67 'differ':148 'easier':171 'edit':68 'feel':18 'final':92 'fix':123 'forward':84 'get':93,116,130 'gimp':8,37,55,74 'go':78,87 'gtk3':14 'gtk4':169 'honest':111 'hope':165 'huge':71 'improv':164 'job':127 'keep':36 'leap':83 'like':19 'major':5 'make':121 'manag':62 'move':167 'non':66 'non-destruct':65 'number':125 'one':126,155 'pace':160 'peopl':24 'perhap':158 'point':6 'port':12 'probabl':30 'profession':43 'progress':162 'project':149 'readi':64 'realiz':2 'realli':48,77 'releas':57 'right':142 'said':16 'set':53 'shape':133 'signific':33 'situat':108 'small':139 'sound':109 'space':21 'team':140 'terribl':110 'though':112 'tool':44 'treat':40 'two':147 'wait':27 'wall':102 'well':73 'work':98"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5131069"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700843641 {#2276
        date: 2023-11-24 17:34:01.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 159072
    }
  ]
  -id: 16302
  -titleTs: "'3.0':2 'final':3 'gimp':1 'releas':6 'schedul':7"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700924752
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/6773814"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700838352 {#2576
    date: 2023-11-24 16:05:52.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2551 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2624 …}
  +slug: "GIMP-3-0-finally-has-a-release-schedule"
  +title: "GIMP 3.0 finally has a release schedule"
  +url: "https://librearts.org/2023/11/gimp-3-0-roadmap/"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 46
  +favouriteCount: 524
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700957184 {#2253
    date: 2023-11-26 01:06:24.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2623 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2621 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2618 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2652 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2648 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2317 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2317 …}
      +body: """
        What is the March deadline?\n
        \n
        I thought they were feature freezing in December for a release in May.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 4
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700842987 {#2305
        date: 2023-11-24 17:23:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@reddit_sux@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2318 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2316 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2294 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2296 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2281 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2280 …}
      -id: 159036
      -bodyTs: "'deadlin':5 'decemb':13 'featur':10 'freez':11 'march':4 'may':18 'releas':16 'thought':7"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5130802"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700842987 {#2304
        date: 2023-11-24 17:23:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 159036
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2279
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2319 …2}
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    What is the March deadline?\n
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    I thought they were feature freezing in December for a release in May.
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          What is the March deadline?\n
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    I realize that the major point of GIMP 3 is the port to GTK3. That said, I feel like colour spaces are what people have been waiting for and probably the most significant deficiency that keeps GIMP from being treated as a professional tool.\n
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          What is the March deadline?\n
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    I realize that the major point of GIMP 3 is the port to GTK3. That said, I feel like colour spaces are what people have been waiting for and probably the most significant deficiency that keeps GIMP from being treated as a professional tool.\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
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          What is the March deadline?\n
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    I realize that the major point of GIMP 3 is the port to GTK3. That said, I feel like colour spaces are what people have been waiting for and probably the most significant deficiency that keeps GIMP from being treated as a professional tool.\n
    \n
    If they are really this close, why not set the GIMP 3 release date for when colour management is ready?\n
    \n
    Non-destructive editing will be huge as well. GIMP 3 is really going to be a crazy leap forward. It is going to be amazing to finally get access to all this work that has been walled off for decades.\n
    \n
    The bug situation sounds terrible. Honestly though, they should just get 3 out and then make bug fixing the number one job until it gets into better shape.\n
    \n
    Not only is it a small team but right now there are basically two different projects ( 2 and 3 ). With only one code base, perhaps the pace of progress can improve.\n
    \n
    Hopefully the move to GTK4 is easier.
    """
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        \n
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    - The Wayland backend supports embedding a wlroots compositor inside an existing Wayland client.\n
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    """
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    - The Wayland backend supports embedding a wlroots compositor inside an existing Wayland client.\n
    - wl_surface roles have been refactored.
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      - The Wayland backend supports embedding a wlroots compositor inside an existing Wayland client.\n
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Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
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      - The Wayland backend supports embedding a wlroots compositor inside an existing Wayland client.\n
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Show voter details
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          - xwayland-shell-v1 to improve XWayland reliability.\n
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      - The Wayland backend supports embedding a wlroots compositor inside an existing Wayland client.\n
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    -bodyTs: "'add':95,105,121,125,128,136,172 'allow':35,54 'api':90,99,107 'audio':17 'backend':190 'block':135 'buffer':39,127,142 'client':36,55,71,200 'clip':158 'compositor':195 'content':7,15 'content-type-v1':6 'context':67 'continu':115 'control':52 'current':169 'cursor':76,83,162,170 'cursor-shape-v1':75 'design':102 'dmabuf':155 'embed':192 'etc':20 'event':145 'exist':198 'factor':46 'feedback':156 'flip':64 'format':124 'fraction':31 'game':19 'graph':149 'highlight':2 'identifi':70 'imag':171 'implement':5,174 'implicit':131 'improv':26,101,146,160,184 'includ':150 'insid':196 'instead':133 'integ':44 'interfac':179 'interoper':129 'introduc':85 'keep':165 'kms':93 'layer':89 'leverag':92 'libwayland':181 'linux':154 'linux-dmabuf':153 'match':47 'new':3,87,97,140 'non':43 'non-integ':42 'opt':58 'opt-in':57 'output':49,88 'page':63 'page-flip':62 'perform':104,187 'plane':94 'protocol':4 'queri':109 'refactor':206 'releas':1 'reliabl':28,185 'render':98,114,120 'replac':180 'rgb':123 'role':203 'run':72 'sandbox':74 'scale':32,45,143 'scene':148 'scene-graph':147 'secur':66 'security-context-v1':65 'server':81 'server-sid':80 'shape':77 'shell':23 'shm':178 'side':82 'submit':38 'support':137,151,191 'surfac':12,159,202 'synchron':132 'tag':11 'taken':112 'tear':51,61 'tearing-control':50 'theme':84 'time':111 'track':166 'transform':144 'type':8,16 'v1':9,24,33,68,78 'video':18 'vulkan':119 'wayland':189,199 'wl':177,201 'wl_surface.preferred':141 'wlr':161 'wlroot':194 'work':116 'wp':30 'wp-fractional-scale-v1':29 'xwayland':22,27 'xwayland-shell-v1':21 'yuv':126"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700791354
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/6709987"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701195697 {#2572
      date: 2023-11-28 19:21:37.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700704954 {#2558
      date: 2023-11-23 03:02:34.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2309 …}
  +body: "Makes sense. You have to factor in libwayland though."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 2
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700756893 {#2299
    date: 2023-11-23 17:28:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@pastermil@sh.itjust.works"
    "@Laser@feddit.de"
    "@ultra@feddit.ro"
    "@starman@programming.dev"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2301 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2297 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2315 …}
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  -id: 155227
  -bodyTs: "'factor':6 'libwayland':8 'make':1 'sens':2 'though':9"
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    date: 2023-11-23 17:28:13.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 155227
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
22 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2673 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "Open-Source-NVIDIA-Vulkan-Driver-NVK-Reaches-Vulkan-1-0-Conformance"
  +title: "Open Source NVIDIA Vulkan Driver NVK Reaches Vulkan 1.0 Conformance"
  +url: "https://9to5linux.com/open-source-nvidia-vulkan-driver-nvk-reaches-vulkan-1-0-conformance"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 8
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  +score: 0
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1700726150 {#2709
    date: 2023-11-23 08:55:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
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        "@RiderExMachina@lemmy.ml"
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  -id: 14987
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546142 {#2695
    date: 2023-11-21 06:55:42.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2673 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
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  +url: "https://9to5linux.com/open-source-nvidia-vulkan-driver-nvk-reaches-vulkan-1-0-conformance"
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  +commentCount: 8
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1700726150 {#2709
    date: 2023-11-23 08:55:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +tags: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
      +body: "It says “ready by the end of 2024” so not quite there yet. Still, a very good development for sure."
      +lang: "en"
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        "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@RiderExMachina@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
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      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
      -id: 146243
      -bodyTs: "'2024':8 'develop':18 'end':6 'good':17 'quit':11 'readi':3 'say':2 'still':14 'sure':20 'yet':13"
      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700565742 {#2108
        date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
      }
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    }
  ]
  -id: 14987
  -titleTs: "'1.0':9 'conform':10 'driver':5 'nvidia':3 'nvk':6 'open':1 'reach':7 'sourc':2 'vulkan':4,8"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700632542
  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546142 {#2695
    date: 2023-11-21 06:55:42.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2673 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "Open-Source-NVIDIA-Vulkan-Driver-NVK-Reaches-Vulkan-1-0-Conformance"
  +title: "Open Source NVIDIA Vulkan Driver NVK Reaches Vulkan 1.0 Conformance"
  +url: "https://9to5linux.com/open-source-nvidia-vulkan-driver-nvk-reaches-vulkan-1-0-conformance"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
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  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 8
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1700726150 {#2709
    date: 2023-11-23 08:55:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
      +body: "It says “ready by the end of 2024” so not quite there yet. Still, a very good development for sure."
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        "@RiderExMachina@lemmy.ml"
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
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      -id: 146243
      -bodyTs: "'2024':8 'develop':18 'end':6 'good':17 'quit':11 'readi':3 'say':2 'still':14 'sure':20 'yet':13"
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        date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
      }
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  ]
  -id: 14987
  -titleTs: "'1.0':9 'conform':10 'driver':5 'nvidia':3 'nvk':6 'open':1 'reach':7 'sourc':2 'vulkan':4,8"
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  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700632542
  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546142 {#2695
    date: 2023-11-21 06:55:42.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
25 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
26 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2673 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Open-Source-NVIDIA-Vulkan-Driver-NVK-Reaches-Vulkan-1-0-Conformance"
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    +url: "https://9to5linux.com/open-source-nvidia-vulkan-driver-nvk-reaches-vulkan-1-0-conformance"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
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    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
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    ]
    -id: 14987
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    +ranking: 1700632542
    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546142 {#2695
      date: 2023-11-21 06:55:42.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
  +body: "It says “ready by the end of 2024” so not quite there yet. Still, a very good development for sure."
  +lang: "en"
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  +favouriteCount: 6
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    date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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    "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@RiderExMachina@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
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    date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 146243
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2673 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Open-Source-NVIDIA-Vulkan-Driver-NVK-Reaches-Vulkan-1-0-Conformance"
    +title: "Open Source NVIDIA Vulkan Driver NVK Reaches Vulkan 1.0 Conformance"
    +url: "https://9to5linux.com/open-source-nvidia-vulkan-driver-nvk-reaches-vulkan-1-0-conformance"
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      date: 2023-11-23 08:55:50.0 +01:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111}
    ]
    -id: 14987
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      date: 2023-11-21 06:55:42.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
  +body: "It says “ready by the end of 2024” so not quite there yet. Still, a very good development for sure."
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
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    "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@RiderExMachina@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
  -id: 146243
  -bodyTs: "'2024':8 'develop':18 'end':6 'good':17 'quit':11 'readi':3 'say':2 'still':14 'sure':20 'yet':13"
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  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700565742 {#2108
    date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 146243
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2101
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2673 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Open-Source-NVIDIA-Vulkan-Driver-NVK-Reaches-Vulkan-1-0-Conformance"
    +title: "Open Source NVIDIA Vulkan Driver NVK Reaches Vulkan 1.0 Conformance"
    +url: "https://9to5linux.com/open-source-nvidia-vulkan-driver-nvk-reaches-vulkan-1-0-conformance"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
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    +favouriteCount: 180
    +score: 0
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1700726150 {#2709
      date: 2023-11-23 08:55:50.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2111}
    ]
    -id: 14987
    -titleTs: "'1.0':9 'conform':10 'driver':5 'nvidia':3 'nvk':6 'open':1 'reach':7 'sourc':2 'vulkan':4,8"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700632542
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/6618059"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546142 {#2695
      date: 2023-11-21 06:55:42.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2102 …}
  +body: "It says “ready by the end of 2024” so not quite there yet. Still, a very good development for sure."
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
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    "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@RiderExMachina@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2124 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
  -id: 146243
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700565742 {#2108
    date: 2023-11-21 12:22:22.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 146243
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
29 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
30 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2694 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "EndeavourOS-Ditches-Xfce-for-KDE-Plasma-with-the-Galileo-Release"
  +title: "EndeavourOS Ditches Xfce for KDE Plasma with the Galileo Release"
  +url: "https://9to5linux.com/endeavouros-ditches-xfce-for-kde-plasma-with-the-galileo-release"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 20
  +favouriteCount: 284
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700633159 {#2689
    date: 2023-11-22 07:05:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2697 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
  +children: [
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2047
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2057 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2057 …}
      +body: """
        Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
        \n
        XFCE use the GTK toolkit.\n
        \n
        So, it is totally reasonable to say that KDE is “more native”.\n
        \n
        While Wayland maybe a factor, KDE itself will not be fully Wayland compatible until Plasma 6 next year. So that does not really explain the timing of this move.\n
        \n
        I use XFCE myself so I am a bit nervous about the change. We will see.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 22
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700565437 {#2059
        date: 2023-11-21 12:17:17.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2050 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2052 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2058 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2125 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2041 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2100 …}
      -id: 146224
      -bodyTs: "'6':53 'also':15 'bit':75 'calamar':1,13 'chang':79 'compat':50 'explain':61 'factor':42 'fulli':48 'gtk':24 'involv':11,16 'kde':19,34,43 'mayb':40 'move':66 'nativ':37 'nervous':76 'next':54 'peopl':10 'plasma':52 'project':20 'qml':4 'qt':5 'realli':60 'reason':30 'say':32 'see':82 'time':63 'toolkit':6,25 'total':29 'use':2,22,68 'wayland':39,49 'xfce':21,69 'year':55"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5027748"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700565437 {#2046
        date: 2023-11-21 12:17:17.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 146224
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2119 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2116 …}
      +body: """
        You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
        \n
        The releases do two things:\n
        \n
        1 - they provide updated install media that are closer to the current repo contents so that upgrading after install is a smaller and more reliable operation.\n
        \n
        2 - they provide an opportunity to change the system defaults. For example, the move to dracut. If you installed a couple of years ago, you can upgrade all your packages but you will still not be using dracut ( unless you make that change yourself ). Everybody that installs EOS now will use dracut by default. That is true of other things, like this change to KDE for the offline install.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 3
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700633107 {#2115
        date: 2023-11-22 07:05:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world"
        "@guywithoutaname@lemm.ee"
        "@cygnus@lemmy.ca"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2120 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2160 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2162 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2128 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2126 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
      -id: 149736
      -bodyTs: "'1':40 '2':66 'ago':89 'alway':30 'chang':72,108,128 'closer':48 'content':53 'correct':3 'coupl':86 'current':51 'default':75,119 'dracut':81,103,117 'endeavouro':5 'eo':113 'essenti':29 'everybodi':110 'exampl':77 'instal':44,58,84,112,134 'kde':130 'latest':33 'like':126 'make':106 'media':45 'move':79 'never':14,18 'new':24 'offlin':133 'oper':65 'opportun':70 'packag':95 'provid':42,68 'realli':19 'releas':9,25,36 'reliabl':64 'repo':52 'roll':8 'sens':12 'sinc':26 'smaller':61 'softwar':34 'still':99 'system':74 'thing':39,125 'true':122 'two':38 'unless':104 'updat':43 'upgrad':21,56,92 'use':31,102,116 'year':88"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700633107 {#2113
        date: 2023-11-22 07:05:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 149736
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2223
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2116 …}
      +body: "You can only choose the other DE options if you use the “online” installer. By default, you will get KDE now."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700633159 {#2224
        date: 2023-11-22 07:05:59.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@petsoi@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world"
        "@guywithoutaname@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2216 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2230 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2232 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2228 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2192 …}
      -id: 149738
      -bodyTs: "'choos':4 'de':7 'default':16 'get':19 'instal':14 'kde':20 'onlin':13 'option':8 'use':11"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/5054114"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700633159 {#2198
        date: 2023-11-22 07:05:59.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 149738
    }
  ]
  -id: 14985
  -titleTs: "'ditch':2 'endeavouro':1 'galileo':9 'kde':5 'plasma':6 'releas':10 'xfce':3"
  -bodyTs: null
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  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700632431
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/6618052"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546031 {#2670
    date: 2023-11-21 06:53:51.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2694 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "EndeavourOS-Ditches-Xfce-for-KDE-Plasma-with-the-Galileo-Release"
  +title: "EndeavourOS Ditches Xfce for KDE Plasma with the Galileo Release"
  +url: "https://9to5linux.com/endeavouros-ditches-xfce-for-kde-plasma-with-the-galileo-release"
  +body: null
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 20
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    date: 2023-11-22 07:05:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
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  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2697 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
  +children: [
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2047
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2057 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2057 …}
      +body: """
        Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
        \n
        XFCE use the GTK toolkit.\n
        \n
        So, it is totally reasonable to say that KDE is “more native”.\n
        \n
        While Wayland maybe a factor, KDE itself will not be fully Wayland compatible until Plasma 6 next year. So that does not really explain the timing of this move.\n
        \n
        I use XFCE myself so I am a bit nervous about the change. We will see.
        """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
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        You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
        \n
        The releases do two things:\n
        \n
        1 - they provide updated install media that are closer to the current repo contents so that upgrading after install is a smaller and more reliable operation.\n
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        """
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      +"title": 149736
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2223
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2116 …}
      +body: "You can only choose the other DE options if you use the “online” installer. By default, you will get KDE now."
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        "@Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world"
        "@guywithoutaname@lemm.ee"
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
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  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2694 …}
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        Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
        \n
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123
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        You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2047
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          You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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          date: 2023-11-22 07:05:07.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 149736
      }
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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    Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2047
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          You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2047
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          You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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    \n
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38 DENIED moderate 
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          Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
          \n
          XFCE use the GTK toolkit.\n
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          \n
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          \n
          I use XFCE myself so I am a bit nervous about the change. We will see.
          """
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2116 …}
        +body: "You can only choose the other DE options if you use the “online” installer. By default, you will get KDE now."
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          "@Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700546031 {#2670
      date: 2023-11-21 06:53:51.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2119 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2116 …}
  +body: """
    You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
    \n
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    """
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    "@Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world"
    "@guywithoutaname@lemm.ee"
    "@cygnus@lemmy.ca"
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39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123
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          Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
          \n
          XFCE use the GTK toolkit.\n
          \n
          So, it is totally reasonable to say that KDE is “more native”.\n
          \n
          While Wayland maybe a factor, KDE itself will not be fully Wayland compatible until Plasma 6 next year. So that does not really explain the timing of this move.\n
          \n
          I use XFCE myself so I am a bit nervous about the change. We will see.
          """
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        +"title": 146224
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123}
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    You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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Show voter details
40 DENIED moderate 
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    You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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          Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
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          You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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          date: 2023-11-21 12:17:17.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 146224
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2045 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2119 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2116 …}
        +body: """
          You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
          \n
          The releases do two things:\n
          \n
          1 - they provide updated install media that are closer to the current repo contents so that upgrading after install is a smaller and more reliable operation.\n
          \n
          2 - they provide an opportunity to change the system defaults. For example, the move to dracut. If you installed a couple of years ago, you can upgrade all your packages but you will still not be using dracut ( unless you make that change yourself ). Everybody that installs EOS now will use dracut by default. That is true of other things, like this change to KDE for the offline install.
          """
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          "@Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world"
          "@guywithoutaname@lemm.ee"
          "@cygnus@lemmy.ca"
        ]
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        +"title": 149736
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2223}
    ]
    -id: 14985
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      date: 2023-11-21 06:53:51.0 +01:00
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  +body: "You can only choose the other DE options if you use the “online” installer. By default, you will get KDE now."
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    "@guywithoutaname@lemm.ee"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2223
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2694 …}
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    +slug: "EndeavourOS-Ditches-Xfce-for-KDE-Plasma-with-the-Galileo-Release"
    +title: "EndeavourOS Ditches Xfce for KDE Plasma with the Galileo Release"
    +url: "https://9to5linux.com/endeavouros-ditches-xfce-for-kde-plasma-with-the-galileo-release"
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          Calamares uses the QML / Qt toolkit. Most of the people involved in Calamares are also involved in the KDE Project.\n
          \n
          XFCE use the GTK toolkit.\n
          \n
          So, it is totally reasonable to say that KDE is “more native”.\n
          \n
          While Wayland maybe a factor, KDE itself will not be fully Wayland compatible until Plasma 6 next year. So that does not really explain the timing of this move.\n
          \n
          I use XFCE myself so I am a bit nervous about the change. We will see.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2123
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          You are correct that EndeavourOS is a rolling release. In that sense, you never have to ( and never really do ) “upgrade” to these new “releases” since you are essentially always using the latest software.\n
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46 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2035
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  +slug: "6-LibreOffice-Alternatives-for-Linux"
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        The only benefit that OpenOffice had was the name. Given the momentum that LibreOffice had early on, OpenOffice should clearly have joined with them and maybe ceded the name.\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
47 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2035
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2730 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2770 …}
  +slug: "6-LibreOffice-Alternatives-for-Linux"
  +title: "6 LibreOffice Alternatives for Linux"
  +url: "https://itsfoss.com/libreoffice-alternatives-linux/"
  +body: null
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    date: 2023-11-19 16:08:32.0 +01:00
  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2772 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2035 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2031 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2036 …}
      +body: """
        The only benefit that OpenOffice had was the name. Given the momentum that LibreOffice had early on, OpenOffice should clearly have joined with them and maybe ceded the name.\n
        \n
        I am glad that LibreOffice did not try to merge back with OpenOffice as clearly it remains a poorly managed project. The continued existence of OpenOffice is doing tremendous damage to the wider ecosystem. The fact that Apache continues to promote the project not only reflects badly in them but show what poor stewards they are. I would not have wanted their lead ship to have hampered the subsequent success of LibreOffice. The whole episode just proves that LibreOffice was right to break away and not just because of Oracle.
        """
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        "@bbbhltz@beehaw.org"
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      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2075 …}
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      +"title": 139698
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
48 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2035
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  +slug: "6-LibreOffice-Alternatives-for-Linux"
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2031 …}
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      +body: """
        The only benefit that OpenOffice had was the name. Given the momentum that LibreOffice had early on, OpenOffice should clearly have joined with them and maybe ceded the name.\n
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        I am glad that LibreOffice did not try to merge back with OpenOffice as clearly it remains a poorly managed project. The continued existence of OpenOffice is doing tremendous damage to the wider ecosystem. The fact that Apache continues to promote the project not only reflects badly in them but show what poor stewards they are. I would not have wanted their lead ship to have hampered the subsequent success of LibreOffice. The whole episode just proves that LibreOffice was right to break away and not just because of Oracle.
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        "@bbbhltz@beehaw.org"
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    date: 2023-11-19 07:58:03.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
50 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
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    ]
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     …2
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    The only benefit that OpenOffice had was the name. Given the momentum that LibreOffice had early on, OpenOffice should clearly have joined with them and maybe ceded the name.\n
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    I am glad that LibreOffice did not try to merge back with OpenOffice as clearly it remains a poorly managed project. The continued existence of OpenOffice is doing tremendous damage to the wider ecosystem. The fact that Apache continues to promote the project not only reflects badly in them but show what poor stewards they are. I would not have wanted their lead ship to have hampered the subsequent success of LibreOffice. The whole episode just proves that LibreOffice was right to break away and not just because of Oracle.
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    "@ares35@kbin.social"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700397588 {#2013
    date: 2023-11-19 13:39:48.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 139698
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2035
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2575 …}
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    +slug: "6-LibreOffice-Alternatives-for-Linux"
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     …2
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    The only benefit that OpenOffice had was the name. Given the momentum that LibreOffice had early on, OpenOffice should clearly have joined with them and maybe ceded the name.\n
    \n
    I am glad that LibreOffice did not try to merge back with OpenOffice as clearly it remains a poorly managed project. The continued existence of OpenOffice is doing tremendous damage to the wider ecosystem. The fact that Apache continues to promote the project not only reflects badly in them but show what poor stewards they are. I would not have wanted their lead ship to have hampered the subsequent success of LibreOffice. The whole episode just proves that LibreOffice was right to break away and not just because of Oracle.
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    "@ares35@kbin.social"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700397588 {#2013
    date: 2023-11-19 13:39:48.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 139698
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
52 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2027
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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    +slug: "6-LibreOffice-Alternatives-for-Linux"
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    The only benefit that OpenOffice had was the name. Given the momentum that LibreOffice had early on, OpenOffice should clearly have joined with them and maybe ceded the name.\n
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    Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
    \n
    This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
    \n
    Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
    \n
    ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
    \n
    - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
    - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
    - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
    - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
    \n
    …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
    \n
    In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
    \n
    As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
    \n
    Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
    \n
    And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
    \n
    As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
    \n
    Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
    - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
    - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
    - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
    \n
    Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
    - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
    \n
    Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
    - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
    - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
    \n
    Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
    \n
    DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
    \n
    Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
    \n
    As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
    - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
    - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
    \n
    Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
    - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
    - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
    - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
    - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
    - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
    - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
    - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
    - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
    \n
    And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
    """
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      +"title": 133840
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +body: """
        Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
        \n
        It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
        \n
        That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
        \n
        There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
        \n
        Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
        \n
        It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
        \n
        It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1560 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1525 …}
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      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4914764"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
        date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 133917
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
      +body: """
        What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
        \n
        This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
        \n
        It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
        \n
        Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
        \n
        Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@rah@feddit.uk"
      ]
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      -id: 134411
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        date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
        date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 134411
    }
    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
      +body: "Very"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700351481 {#1719
        date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1720 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1717 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1741 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1707 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2464 …}
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      -id: 138450
      -bodyTs: ""
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
        date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138450
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +body: """
        I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
        \n
        When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
      }
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
      ]
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      -id: 138462
      -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351849 {#2422
        date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138462
    }
    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
      +body: """
        Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
        \n
        Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
        \n
        Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
        \n
        Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
        \n
        The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2377 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2359 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2364 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2380 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2382 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2384 …}
      -id: 138538
      -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
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      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
        date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
        date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138538
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
      +body: """
        Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
        \n
        Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@qwesx@kbin.social"
        "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      -id: 138947
      -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
      +ranking: 0
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700703869 {#2381
        date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
        date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138947
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
      +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      -id: 139047
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139047
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +body: """
        Maybe.\n
        \n
        That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
        \n
        Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
        \n
        Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
        \n
        Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
        \n
        As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
        "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      -id: 139067
      -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963715"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
        date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139067
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
        \n
        The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
        \n
        The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
        \n
        Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
        \n
        It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
        """
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      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1700410718 {#2241
        date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2131 …}
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        date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 140164
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +body: """
        That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
        \n
        I mean, really great point.
        """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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      +body: """
        I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
        \n
        Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
        \n
        There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 140419
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +body: """
        As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
        \n
        I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
        \n
        Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
        \n
        Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
        \n
        I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
        \n
        Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
        """
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        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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}
 
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Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
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  +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
  +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
    \n
    This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
    \n
    Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
    \n
    ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
    \n
    - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
    - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
    - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
    - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
    \n
    …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
    \n
    In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
    \n
    As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
    \n
    Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
    \n
    And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
    \n
    As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
    \n
    Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
    - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
    - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
    - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
    \n
    Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
    - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
    \n
    Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
    - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
    - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
    \n
    Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
    \n
    DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
    \n
    Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
    \n
    As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
    - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
    - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
    \n
    Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
    - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
    - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
    - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
    - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
    - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
    - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
    - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
    - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
    \n
    And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
    """
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      +body: "RavynOS?"
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        "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
        "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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        date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
        \n
        It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
        \n
        That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
        \n
        There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
        \n
        Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
        \n
        It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
        \n
        It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
        \n
        This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
        \n
        It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
        \n
        Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
        \n
        Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
        """
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      +body: """
        I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
        \n
        When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
        """
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        "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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      -id: 138462
      -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138462
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
      +body: """
        Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
        \n
        Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
        \n
        Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
        \n
        Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
        \n
        The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2377 …}
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      -id: 138538
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
        date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
        date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138538
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
      +body: """
        Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
        \n
        Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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        "@qwesx@kbin.social"
        "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      -id: 138947
      -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700703869 {#2381
        date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
        date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138947
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
      +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 8
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
      }
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
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      -id: 139047
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139047
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +body: """
        Maybe.\n
        \n
        That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
        \n
        Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
        \n
        Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
        \n
        Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
        \n
        As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
        "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      -id: 139067
      -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139067
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
        \n
        The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
        \n
        The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
        \n
        Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
        \n
        It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
      ]
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      -id: 140164
      -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
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        date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 140164
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
        \n
        I mean, really great point.
        """
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        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 140182
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
      +body: """
        I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
        \n
        Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
        \n
        There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@dan@upvote.au"
      ]
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      -id: 140419
      -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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        date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 140419
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
        \n
        I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
        \n
        Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
        \n
        Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
        \n
        I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
        \n
        Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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      -id: 141877
      -bodyTs: "'2025':172 '5':177 'alreadi':122 'appear':148 'bsd':215 'cinnamon':138 'contribut':186 'decid':35 'deck':133 'desktop':111,158 'dev':200 'draw':64 'driven':7 'either':57 'end':170 'enemi':44 'enlighten':120 'evid':6 'expect':162 'fact':240 'fan':47 'gain':150 'gnome':96 'go':207 'hat':128,182 'impact':38 'indict':40 'kde':98 'lead':90 'let':32 'like':3,228 'line':66 'linux':110,157 'littl':219 'long':203 'longer':220 'machin':29 'manag':146 'may':175,216 'most':15 'move':86,123,140,226 'next':104,141 'nobodi':195 'noth':233 'peopl':72,81,174 'percentag':107,154 'popul':112 'popular':152 'provid':73 'rate':95 'reader':34 'red':127 'ref':181 'repres':117 'right':118 'run':205 'rush':197 'said':194 'say':10,213 'seem':68 'side':54 'softwar':74,84 'start':224 'stay':5,209 'steam':132 'still':164 'stop':185 'sure':51 'take':217 'think':115 'tri':62 'typic':21 'ubuntu':124 'univers':159 'us':91 'use':13,77,125,129,134,166 'user':24 'viabl':210 'wait':176 'wayland':23,41,88,102,126,130,135,143,229 'window':145 'worst':43 'would':212 'write':82 'x':167,188,201,206 'xfce':14,136 'year':105,142,178"
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  ]
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64 DENIED moderate 
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  +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
  +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
    \n
    This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
    \n
    Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
    \n
    ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
    \n
    - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
    - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
    - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
    - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
    \n
    …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
    \n
    In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
    \n
    As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
    \n
    Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
    \n
    And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
    \n
    As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
    \n
    Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
    - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
    - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
    - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
    \n
    Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
    - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
    \n
    Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
    - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
    - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
    \n
    Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
    \n
    DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
    \n
    Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
    \n
    As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
    - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
    - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
    \n
    Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
    - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
    - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
    - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
    - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
    - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
    - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
    - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
    - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
    \n
    And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
    """
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    date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1667 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
      +body: "RavynOS?"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
        "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 133840
      -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700238622 {#1435
        date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 133840
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +body: """
        Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
        \n
        It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
        \n
        That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
        \n
        There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
        \n
        Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
        \n
        It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
        \n
        It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
        """
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
        date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 133917
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
      +body: """
        What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
        \n
        This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
        \n
        It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
        \n
        Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
        \n
        Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
        """
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@rah@feddit.uk"
      ]
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      -id: 134411
      -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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        date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
      }
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        date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 134411
    }
    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
      +body: "Very"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
      }
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1720 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1717 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1741 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1707 …}
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      -id: 138450
      -bodyTs: ""
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
        date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138450
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +body: """
        I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
        \n
        When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
      ]
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      -id: 138462
      -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
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        date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138462
    }
    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
      +body: """
        Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
        \n
        Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
        \n
        Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
        \n
        Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
        \n
        The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2377 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2359 …}
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      -id: 138538
      -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
        date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
        date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 138538
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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      +body: """
        Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
        \n
        Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
        """
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@qwesx@kbin.social"
        "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
        date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138947
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
      +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
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      -id: 139047
      -bodyTs: "'build':6 'old':1 'stuff':4 'time':9 'useless':3"
      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963370"
      +editedAt: null
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139047
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
      +body: """
        Maybe.\n
        \n
        That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
        \n
        Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
        \n
        Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
        \n
        Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
        \n
        As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
        "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
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      -id: 139067
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        date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139067
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
        \n
        The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
        \n
        The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
        \n
        Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
        \n
        It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
      ]
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        date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 140164
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
        \n
        I mean, really great point.
        """
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
      ]
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      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2325 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
      -id: 140182
      -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
        date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 140182
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
      +body: """
        I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
        \n
        Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
        \n
        There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@dan@upvote.au"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
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      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
      -id: 140419
      -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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        date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 140419
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
      +body: """
        As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
        \n
        I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
        \n
        Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
        \n
        Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
        \n
        I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
        \n
        Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
        """
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      +isAdult: false
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        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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        -id: 134411
        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
        -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4976431"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700416721 {#2324
          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138450
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140164
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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68 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 134411
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139067
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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70 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2732 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2734 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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    +children: [
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1667 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 133840
        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4913948"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700238622 {#1435
          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351849 {#2422
          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
    \n
    It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
    \n
    That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
    \n
    There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
    \n
    Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
    \n
    It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
    \n
    It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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  +body: """
    Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
    \n
    It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
    \n
    That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
    \n
    There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
    \n
    Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
    \n
    It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
    \n
    It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        -bodyTs: ""
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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        -id: 141877
        -bodyTs: "'2025':172 '5':177 'alreadi':122 'appear':148 'bsd':215 'cinnamon':138 'contribut':186 'decid':35 'deck':133 'desktop':111,158 'dev':200 'draw':64 'driven':7 'either':57 'end':170 'enemi':44 'enlighten':120 'evid':6 'expect':162 'fact':240 'fan':47 'gain':150 'gnome':96 'go':207 'hat':128,182 'impact':38 'indict':40 'kde':98 'lead':90 'let':32 'like':3,228 'line':66 'linux':110,157 'littl':219 'long':203 'longer':220 'machin':29 'manag':146 'may':175,216 'most':15 'move':86,123,140,226 'next':104,141 'nobodi':195 'noth':233 'peopl':72,81,174 'percentag':107,154 'popul':112 'popular':152 'provid':73 'rate':95 'reader':34 'red':127 'ref':181 'repres':117 'right':118 'run':205 'rush':197 'said':194 'say':10,213 'seem':68 'side':54 'softwar':74,84 'start':224 'stay':5,209 'steam':132 'still':164 'stop':185 'sure':51 'take':217 'think':115 'tri':62 'typic':21 'ubuntu':124 'univers':159 'us':91 'use':13,77,125,129,134,166 'user':24 'viabl':210 'wait':176 'wayland':23,41,88,102,126,130,135,143,229 'window':145 'worst':43 'would':212 'write':82 'x':167,188,201,206 'xfce':14,136 'year':105,142,178"
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    ]
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
    \n
    It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
    \n
    That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
    \n
    There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
    \n
    Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
    \n
    It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
    \n
    It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        -bodyTs: ""
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963370"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140164
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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        +"title": 140182
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
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        +"title": 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
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          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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  +body: """
    What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
    \n
    This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
    \n
    It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
    \n
    Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
    \n
    Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
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        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4974138"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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  +body: """
    What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
    \n
    This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
    \n
    It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
    \n
    Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
    \n
    Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
    """
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76 DENIED moderate 
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
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        +body: "Very"
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +"title": 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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    +apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2715
      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2692
      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
    \n
    This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
    \n
    It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
    \n
    Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
    \n
    Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
    """
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  -id: 134411
  -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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  +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4917818"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700537234 {#1558
    date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
  }
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    date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 134411
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1667 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 133840
        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2032 …}
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963715"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'30':43 'all-danc':224 'all-sing':221 'also':182 'base':7 'basi':130 'basic':307 'becom':272 'best':77 'better':281 'big':73 'check':36 'compet':90,190 'complic':75 'compositor':15,118,175,188 'confid':274 'coupl':20 'cours':145 'danc':226 'decad':84 'desktop':325 'dev':300 'differ':58 'drive':195 'dwindl':95 'easier':177 'end':204 'even':159 'ever':3 'evid':69,168 'excit':320 'expect':313 'experi':54 'express':78 'extra':310 'fact':81 'fork':110 'fulli':312 'gnome':151,254 'good':290 'haiku':163 'happi':241 'head':317 'heard':4 'high':299 'implement':179 'innov':296 'instead':234 'journey':263 'kde':149 'launch':29 'level':294 'linux':27,324 'load':100 'long':259 'louvr':128 'made':55,153 'make':172 'mb':44 'mean':183,199 'meg':22 'memori':38 'much':280 'new':116 'normal':284 'number':86 'oasi':26 'one':64,97,126,161 'open':32 'pick':207 'place':282,291 'project':88 'provid':92 'quit':273 'ram':46 'said':269 'saw':125 'shift':304 'sing':223 'situat':237,250 'size':24 'smooth':267 'somebodi':158 'start':302 'strip':210 'super':209 'swc':9,135 'system':52 'take':257 'termin':34 'thank':244 'think':57,157 'tile':13 'time':121,260,321 'unhappi':102 'usag':39 'use':285 'user':205 'velox':6,31,132,246 'version':212,227 'want':218,233,253 'wayfir':138 'wayland':14,60,113,117,174,187,286 'weston':141 'whole':51 'wlroot':146 'wrote':160 'x':93,180 'xorg':65 'yesterday':127 'yet':106"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
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        +tags: null
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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        -id: 134411
        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
        -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351849 {#2422
          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1708 …}
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        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700703869 {#2381
          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 8
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4973873"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4974138"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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80 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4914764"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2377 …}
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        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1667 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 133840
        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700238622 {#1435
          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139067
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
    \n
    When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 8
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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    ]
    -id: 13812
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    +apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2715
      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2692
      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
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  +body: """
    I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
    \n
    When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
    """
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    date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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    "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
    "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
  ]
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  -id: 138462
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  +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954653"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351849 {#2422
    date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 138462
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 133840
        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138450
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138947
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963715"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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  +body: """
    I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
    \n
    When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'30':43 'all-danc':224 'all-sing':221 'also':182 'base':7 'basi':130 'basic':307 'becom':272 'best':77 'better':281 'big':73 'check':36 'compet':90,190 'complic':75 'compositor':15,118,175,188 'confid':274 'coupl':20 'cours':145 'danc':226 'decad':84 'desktop':325 'dev':300 'differ':58 'drive':195 'dwindl':95 'easier':177 'end':204 'even':159 'ever':3 'evid':69,168 'excit':320 'expect':313 'experi':54 'express':78 'extra':310 'fact':81 'fork':110 'fulli':312 'gnome':151,254 'good':290 'haiku':163 'happi':241 'head':317 'heard':4 'high':299 'implement':179 'innov':296 'instead':234 'journey':263 'kde':149 'launch':29 'level':294 'linux':27,324 'load':100 'long':259 'louvr':128 'made':55,153 'make':172 'mb':44 'mean':183,199 'meg':22 'memori':38 'much':280 'new':116 'normal':284 'number':86 'oasi':26 'one':64,97,126,161 'open':32 'pick':207 'place':282,291 'project':88 'provid':92 'quit':273 'ram':46 'said':269 'saw':125 'shift':304 'sing':223 'situat':237,250 'size':24 'smooth':267 'somebodi':158 'start':302 'strip':210 'super':209 'swc':9,135 'system':52 'take':257 'termin':34 'thank':244 'think':57,157 'tile':13 'time':121,260,321 'unhappi':102 'usag':39 'use':285 'user':205 'velox':6,31,132,246 'version':212,227 'want':218,233,253 'wayfir':138 'wayland':14,60,113,117,174,187,286 'weston':141 'whole':51 'wlroot':146 'wrote':160 'x':93,180 'xorg':65 'yesterday':127 'yet':106"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1717 …}
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
        -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4962240"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700703869 {#2381
          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
    \n
    Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
    \n
    Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
    \n
    Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
    \n
    The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
    """
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    "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
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  -id: 138538
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2732 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2734 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138947
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
    \n
    Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
    \n
    Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
    \n
    Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
    \n
    The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
    """
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    date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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    date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 138538
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
    \n
    Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
    \n
    Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
    \n
    Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
    \n
    The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138462
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
    \n
    Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
    """
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  -id: 138947
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91 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133840
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963715"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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    Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
    \n
    Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
    """
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92 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'30':43 'all-danc':224 'all-sing':221 'also':182 'base':7 'basi':130 'basic':307 'becom':272 'best':77 'better':281 'big':73 'check':36 'compet':90,190 'complic':75 'compositor':15,118,175,188 'confid':274 'coupl':20 'cours':145 'danc':226 'decad':84 'desktop':325 'dev':300 'differ':58 'drive':195 'dwindl':95 'easier':177 'end':204 'even':159 'ever':3 'evid':69,168 'excit':320 'expect':313 'experi':54 'express':78 'extra':310 'fact':81 'fork':110 'fulli':312 'gnome':151,254 'good':290 'haiku':163 'happi':241 'head':317 'heard':4 'high':299 'implement':179 'innov':296 'instead':234 'journey':263 'kde':149 'launch':29 'level':294 'linux':27,324 'load':100 'long':259 'louvr':128 'made':55,153 'make':172 'mb':44 'mean':183,199 'meg':22 'memori':38 'much':280 'new':116 'normal':284 'number':86 'oasi':26 'one':64,97,126,161 'open':32 'pick':207 'place':282,291 'project':88 'provid':92 'quit':273 'ram':46 'said':269 'saw':125 'shift':304 'sing':223 'situat':237,250 'size':24 'smooth':267 'somebodi':158 'start':302 'strip':210 'super':209 'swc':9,135 'system':52 'take':257 'termin':34 'thank':244 'think':57,157 'tile':13 'time':121,260,321 'unhappi':102 'usag':39 'use':285 'user':205 'velox':6,31,132,246 'version':212,227 'want':218,233,253 'wayfir':138 'wayland':14,60,113,117,174,187,286 'weston':141 'whole':51 'wlroot':146 'wrote':160 'x':93,180 'xorg':65 'yesterday':127 'yet':106"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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        -id: 134411
        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351481 {#1719
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1720 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1717 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1707 …}
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
        -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351849 {#2422
          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2377 …}
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139047
        -bodyTs: "'build':6 'old':1 'stuff':4 'time':9 'useless':3"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4973873"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 140419
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 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    }
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      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
    \n
    Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
    """
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    "@qwesx@kbin.social"
    "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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    date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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93 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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94 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2732 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2734 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 133840
        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138462
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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        -id: 141877
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    ]
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138450
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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  +body: """
    Maybe.\n
    \n
    That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
    \n
    Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
    \n
    Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
    \n
    Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
    \n
    As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'30':43 'all-danc':224 'all-sing':221 'also':182 'base':7 'basi':130 'basic':307 'becom':272 'best':77 'better':281 'big':73 'check':36 'compet':90,190 'complic':75 'compositor':15,118,175,188 'confid':274 'coupl':20 'cours':145 'danc':226 'decad':84 'desktop':325 'dev':300 'differ':58 'drive':195 'dwindl':95 'easier':177 'end':204 'even':159 'ever':3 'evid':69,168 'excit':320 'expect':313 'experi':54 'express':78 'extra':310 'fact':81 'fork':110 'fulli':312 'gnome':151,254 'good':290 'haiku':163 'happi':241 'head':317 'heard':4 'high':299 'implement':179 'innov':296 'instead':234 'journey':263 'kde':149 'launch':29 'level':294 'linux':27,324 'load':100 'long':259 'louvr':128 'made':55,153 'make':172 'mb':44 'mean':183,199 'meg':22 'memori':38 'much':280 'new':116 'normal':284 'number':86 'oasi':26 'one':64,97,126,161 'open':32 'pick':207 'place':282,291 'project':88 'provid':92 'quit':273 'ram':46 'said':269 'saw':125 'shift':304 'sing':223 'situat':237,250 'size':24 'smooth':267 'somebodi':158 'start':302 'strip':210 'super':209 'swc':9,135 'system':52 'take':257 'termin':34 'thank':244 'think':57,157 'tile':13 'time':121,260,321 'unhappi':102 'usag':39 'use':285 'user':205 'velox':6,31,132,246 'version':212,227 'want':218,233,253 'wayfir':138 'wayland':14,60,113,117,174,187,286 'weston':141 'whole':51 'wlroot':146 'wrote':160 'x':93,180 'xorg':65 'yesterday':127 'yet':106"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4914764"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1621 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1613 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1596 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1702 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1683 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1680 …}
        -id: 134411
        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4917818"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700537234 {#1558
          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351481 {#1719
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1720 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1717 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1741 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1707 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2464 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2448 …}
        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 9
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351849 {#2447
          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
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        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
        -id: 138462
        -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351849 {#2422
          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2377 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2359 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2364 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2380 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2382 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2384 …}
        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1708 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1410 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1907 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1407 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2391 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2369 …}
        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4962240"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700703869 {#2381
          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 8
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700370555 {#2392
          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1361 …}
        -id: 139047
        -bodyTs: "'build':6 'old':1 'stuff':4 'time':9 'useless':3"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963370"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700370555 {#2394
          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2131 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2138 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2346 …}
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4973873"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2060 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2289 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2325 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4974138"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700416721 {#2323
          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2343 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2335 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4976431"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700416721 {#2324
          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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  +body: """
    Maybe.\n
    \n
    That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
    \n
    Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
    \n
    Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
    \n
    Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
    \n
    As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1708 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2369 …}
        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4962240"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700703869 {#2381
          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 8
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1382 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1404 …}
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        -id: 139047
        -bodyTs: "'build':6 'old':1 'stuff':4 'time':9 'useless':3"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963370"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700370555 {#2394
          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2131 …}
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2060 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2331 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2325 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2342 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2343 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2335 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700416721 {#2324
          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-20 04:29:45.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2067 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2049 …}
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        -id: 141877
        -bodyTs: "'2025':172 '5':177 'alreadi':122 'appear':148 'bsd':215 'cinnamon':138 'contribut':186 'decid':35 'deck':133 'desktop':111,158 'dev':200 'draw':64 'driven':7 'either':57 'end':170 'enemi':44 'enlighten':120 'evid':6 'expect':162 'fact':240 'fan':47 'gain':150 'gnome':96 'go':207 'hat':128,182 'impact':38 'indict':40 'kde':98 'lead':90 'let':32 'like':3,228 'line':66 'linux':110,157 'littl':219 'long':203 'longer':220 'machin':29 'manag':146 'may':175,216 'most':15 'move':86,123,140,226 'next':104,141 'nobodi':195 'noth':233 'peopl':72,81,174 'percentag':107,154 'popul':112 'popular':152 'provid':73 'rate':95 'reader':34 'red':127 'ref':181 'repres':117 'right':118 'run':205 'rush':197 'said':194 'say':10,213 'seem':68 'side':54 'softwar':74,84 'start':224 'stay':5,209 'steam':132 'still':164 'stop':185 'sure':51 'take':217 'think':115 'tri':62 'typic':21 'ubuntu':124 'univers':159 'us':91 'use':13,77,125,129,134,166 'user':24 'viabl':210 'wait':176 'wayland':23,41,88,102,126,130,135,143,229 'window':145 'worst':43 'would':212 'write':82 'x':167,188,201,206 'xfce':14,136 'year':105,142,178"
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    ]
    -id: 13812
    -titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2715
      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Maybe.\n
    \n
    That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
    \n
    Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
    \n
    Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
    \n
    Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
    \n
    As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
    """
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    date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138450
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
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        +"title": 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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  +body: """
    You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
    \n
    The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
    \n
    The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
    \n
    Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
    \n
    It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351481 {#1719
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138462
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +"title": 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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        -id: 141877
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    ]
    -id: 13812
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
    \n
    The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
    \n
    The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
    \n
    Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
    \n
    It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700370555 {#2394
          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
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        +"title": 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
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          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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  +body: """
    You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
    \n
    The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
    \n
    The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
    \n
    Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
    \n
    It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133917
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 134411
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139067
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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  +body: """
    That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
    \n
    I mean, really great point.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
107 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2732 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2734 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138538
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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    ]
    -id: 13812
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    That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
    \n
    I mean, really great point.
    """
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108 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 133840
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963715"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
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          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@dan@upvote.au"
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        +"title": 140419
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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    That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
    \n
    I mean, really great point.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
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        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2068 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
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  +body: """
    I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
    \n
    Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
    \n
    There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
    """
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  -id: 140419
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700416721 {#2324
    date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 140419
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@rah@feddit.uk"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: "Very"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
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        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
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        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
        ]
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    I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
    \n
    Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
    \n
    There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1560 …}
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        -id: 133917
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        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4914764"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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        -id: 134411
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700247071 {#1556
          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
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        +tags: null
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
        -bodyTs: "'bias':2 'bsd':4,14,24 'clear':1 'maco':7 'mani':17 'oper':18 'stack':16 'start':10 'system':19 'tcp/ip':15 'toward':3 'use':20 'well':26 'wifi':22 'window':9"
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4973873"
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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        -id: 140182
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +body: """
          As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
          \n
          I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
          \n
          Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
          \n
          Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
          \n
          I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
          \n
          Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
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        -id: 141877
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    ]
    -id: 13812
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
  +body: """
    I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
    \n
    Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
    \n
    There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
    """
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    "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
    "@dan@upvote.au"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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  -id: 140419
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  +"title": 140419
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
  +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2732 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2734 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
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        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139047
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073}
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    As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
    \n
    I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
    \n
    Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
    \n
    Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
    \n
    I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
    \n
    Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
    """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1697
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1667 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666 …}
        +body: "RavynOS?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@pan_troglodytes@programming.dev"
          "@velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 133840
        -bodyTs: "'ravyno':1"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700238622 {#1435
          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133840
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1561
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700239955 {#1527
          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 133917
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1557
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1555 …}
        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@rah@feddit.uk"
        ]
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        -id: 134411
        -bodyTs: "'/usr/bin/wayland':52 'abstract':90 'actual':120 'ad':89,103 'add':115 'alreadi':102 'although':60 'alway':76 'answer':74 'anybodi':82 'bsd':67 'compositor':12 'contribut':79 'could':147,167 'cours':72,171 'critic':59 'even':152 'everyth':154 'first':133 'folk':68 'forev':151 'frustrat':64 'funni':137 'great':58 'haiku':107 'libdrm':19 'libinput':17 'like':16,75,106 'linux':22,98 'make':92,162 'may':40 'might':127 'move':146 'must':62 'non':97 'non-linux':96 'noth':80 'op':46 'oper':99 'other':70 'peopl':140 'point':32,47 'portabl':95 'realli':28,56 'regular':37 'reli':13 'run':168 'second':138 'serenityo':118 'specif':23 'stay':148 'stop':81,155 'support':105,156 'sure':163 'system':100 'take':84 'talk':4 'thing':15 'time':112,125 'user':38 'view':34 'want':144 'wayland':11,27,104 'waylandserv':130,166 'well':42 'whatev':87 'wlroot':85 'would':114,135,159 'write':128 'x':132,150 'xwayland':169"
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          date: 2023-11-21 04:27:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-17 19:51:11.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 134411
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
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        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1707 …}
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4954476"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351481 {#1715
          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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        -id: 138462
        -bodyTs: "'ad':23,29,32 'alreadi':63 'app':61 'back':25 'base':69 'case':72 'complain':15 'doc':50 'enlighten':31 'folk':21 'group':8 'gtk':22,68 'gtk3':27 'jump':37 'like':53 'look':45 'must':35 'notic':3 'one':5 'qt':28 'readi':49,64 'reason':42 'seem':12 'stand':56 'support':24 'thing':52 'toolkit':20 'wayland':17,48 'xfce':54"
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
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          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 138538
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4963715"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700411061 {#2349
          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700416721 {#2324
          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073}
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    -id: 13812
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
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      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
  +body: """
    As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
    \n
    I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
    \n
    Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
    \n
    Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
    \n
    I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
    \n
    Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "RavynOS?"
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:30:22.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          Have you ever heard of Velox ( based on SWC )?\n
          \n
          It is a tiling Wayland compositor that is only a couple of megs in size. On Oasis Linux, I launched into Velox, opened a terminal, and checked the memory usage. It was under 30 MB of RAM. That is for the whole system!\n
          \n
          That experience made me think differently about Wayland.\n
          \n
          There was only one Xorg. For me, the evidence that it was big and complicated is best expressed by the fact that, over decades, the number of projects that competed to provide X had dwindled to one. There was loads of unhappiness with it and yet, there were no forks. Why?\n
          \n
          Now Wayland. There are new Wayland compositors all the time now. I just saw one yesterday—Louvre. The basis for Velox above is SWC. There is Wayfire. There is Weston. There is of course wlroots. And both KDE and GNOME have made their own. I think somebody even wrote one for Haiku! For me, this is evidence in itself that making a Wayland compositor is easier than implementing X.\n
          \n
          It also means that all these Wayland compositors can compete with each other and drive each other. It means that I, as the end user, can pick a super stripped down version when that is what I want and an all-singing, all-dancing version when that is what I want instead. In some situations I will be happy with, and thankful for, Velox and in other situations I will want GNOME.\n
          \n
          It is taking a long time and the journey has not been smooth. That said, I am becoming quite confident that we are in a much better place. For normal uses, Wayland is in a good place now. The level of innovation is very high. Dev can start to shift from the basics to the extras. I fully expect that we are heading into an exciting time on the Linux desktop.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-17 17:52:35.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          What they are talking about is that some of the Wayland compositors rely on things like libinput and libdrm which are Linux specific.\n
          \n
          This is not “Wayland” really but, from the point of view of a regular user, it may as well be. As the OP points out, there is no /usr/bin/Wayland\n
          \n
          It is not really a great criticism although it must be frustrating for the BSD folks and others. Of course, the answer like always is to contribute. Nothing stopping anybody from taking wlroots ( or whatever ) and adding abstractions that make it more portable.\n
          \n
          Non-Linux operating systems have already added Wayland support ( like Haiku ). If I had the time, I would add it to SerenityOS myself.\n
          \n
          Actually, if I had the time, I might write a WaylandServer for X. First, it would be funny. Second, the people that do not want to move could stay on X forever even when everything stops supporting it. I would have to make sure that my WaylandServer could run XWayland of course.
          """
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1718 …}
        +body: "Very"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@shrugal@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138450
        -bodyTs: ""
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:51:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138450
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +body: """
          I have noticed that one of the groups that does not seem to be complaining about Wayland are the toolkit folks. GTK added support back in GTK3. Qt added it. Enlightenment added it. They must have jumped on it for a reason.\n
          \n
          When you look at the Wayland readiness docs for things like XFCE, it stands out that all the apps are already ready ( because they are GTK based in this case ).
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dzaima@discuss.tchncs.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:57:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138462
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2370 …}
        +body: """
          Not only is nobody forking X but many people are building Wayland compositors.\n
          \n
          Listening to the detractors, you get the impression that Wayland is a failure and / or that X may still be the better choice.\n
          \n
          Then you realize the only people still working on X are paid by enterprise distros with long-term support obligations. All the toolkit people have moved to Wayland. The major desktop environments have shifted to Wayland. All the “new” window managers are for Wayland.\n
          \n
          Wayland is already supported on BSD ( FreeBSD at least ).\n
          \n
          The actual developers have spoken and Wayland has won.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@merthyr1831@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138538
        -bodyTs: "'actual':92 'alreadi':84 'better':35 'bsd':87 'build':11 'choic':36 'compositor':13 'desktop':68 'detractor':17 'develop':93 'distro':51 'enterpris':50 'environ':69 'failur':26 'fork':5 'freebsd':88 'get':19 'impress':21 'least':90 'listen':14 'long':54 'long-term':53 'major':67 'manag':78 'mani':8 'may':31 'move':63 'new':76 'nobodi':4 'oblig':57 'paid':48 'peopl':9,42,61 'realiz':39 'shift':71 'spoken':95 'still':32,43 'support':56,85 'term':55 'toolkit':60 'wayland':12,23,65,73,81,82,97 'window':77 'won':99 'work':44 'x':6,30,46"
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        +apId: "https://programming.dev/comment/4955690"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700686437 {#2471
          date: 2023-11-22 21:53:57.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700353862 {#2371
          date: 2023-11-19 01:31:02.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138538
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1906 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1909 …}
        +body: """
          Clearly biased towards BSD as both MacOS and Windows started off with the BSD TCP/IP stack.\n
          \n
          Many operating systems use the WiFi from BSD as well.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
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          "@qwesx@kbin.social"
          "@sir_reginald@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 138947
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          date: 2023-11-23 02:44:29.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700366893 {#2383
          date: 2023-11-19 05:08:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138947
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2395
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2393 …}
        +body: "Old and useless stuff that builds up over time"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@Metatronz@lemmy.world"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:09:15.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139047
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2023
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2030 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1528 …}
        +body: """
          Maybe.\n
          \n
          That said, everything you said about the Xorg server could be said about wlroots. Nobody has to “implement Wayland because they must” anymore. The X approach is available in Wayland as you can build your window manager on top of wlroots and many do.\n
          \n
          Seems fairly apples to apples to me.\n
          \n
          Or you can choose a competing compositor library as there are now quite a few available. I think XFCE is looking at using Wayfire. Or you can control more of the stack directly and write your own as GNOME and KDE are doing.\n
          \n
          Not only do you not have to implement Wayland to make a window manager, because compositor libraries are available, but people are writing Wayland compositors even though they do not have to. Louvre is a compositor recently released that seems expressly designed to make writing new window managers super easy.\n
          \n
          As for innovation, there seems to be lots in Wayland. Valve just added HDR. GTK is looking at using dmabuf. There are already Wayland window managers that are not ports from X. There seems to be innovation at every level.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@un_aristocrate@jlai.lu"
          "@LeFantome@programming.dev"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 139067
        -bodyTs: "'ad':158 'alreadi':168 'anymor':24 'appl':48,50 'approach':27 'avail':29,68,114 'build':35 'choos':56 'compet':58 'compositor':59,111,120,131 'control':80 'could':11 'design':137 'direct':85 'dmabuf':165 'easi':145 'even':121 'everi':184 'everyth':4 'expressli':136 'fair':47 'gnome':91 'gtk':160 'hdr':159 'implement':19,103 'innov':148,182 'kde':93 'level':185 'librari':60,112 'look':73,162 'lot':153 'louvr':128 'make':106,139 'manag':38,109,143,171 'mani':44 'mayb':1 'must':23 'new':141 'nobodi':16 'peopl':116 'port':175 'quit':65 'recent':132 'releas':133 'said':3,6,13 'seem':46,135,150,179 'server':10 'stack':84 'super':144 'think':70 'though':122 'top':40 'use':75,164 'valv':156 'wayfir':76 'wayland':20,31,104,119,155,169 'window':37,108,142,170 'wlroot':15,42 'write':87,118,140 'x':26,177 'xfce':71 'xorg':9"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700371808 {#2019
          date: 2023-11-19 06:30:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139067
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2130
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2133 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          You forgot the part where this is what is happening.\n
          \n
          The Linux ecosystem is not the product of a giant corporation. It is highly distributed and both built and promoted by multiple players with many different goals and interests.\n
          \n
          The people actually building the ecosystem have aligned almost completely on Wayland. The strong implication is that X was not working for them.\n
          \n
          Distributions have been slower to move but that is happening now. You can look at this as forcing users to move. My guess is that it is more a case of pleasing some uses and frustrating others where more users want what Wayland provides than miss what it doesn’t.\n
          \n
          It is always painful to be a laggard during a technology transition. There is usually a period where the new tech becomes common before it does what you want. That is just what technology transitions look like. When that happens, the problem is that the majority is perfectly happy and maybe happier than ever. That is why things happen when they do.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
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        -id: 140164
        -bodyTs: "'actual':42 'align':47 'almost':48 'alway':115 'becom':134 'build':43 'built':28 'case':92 'common':135 'complet':49 'corpor':21 'differ':36 'distribut':25,63 'doesn':111 'ecosystem':13,45 'ever':166 'forc':80 'forgot':2 'frustrat':98 'giant':20 'goal':37 'guess':85 'happen':10,72,152,171 'happi':161 'happier':164 'high':24 'implic':54 'interest':39 'laggard':120 'like':149 'linux':12 'look':76,148 'major':158 'mani':35 'mayb':163 'miss':108 'move':68,83 'multipl':32 'new':132 'other':99 'pain':116 'part':4 'peopl':41 'perfect':160 'period':129 'player':33 'pleas':94 'problem':154 'product':17 'promot':30 'provid':106 'slower':66 'strong':53 'tech':133 'technolog':123,146 'thing':170 'transit':124,147 'use':96 'user':81,102 'usual':127 'want':103,141 'wayland':51,105 'work':60 'x':57"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700410718 {#2140
          date: 2023-11-19 17:18:38.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140164
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2042
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2141 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2129 …}
        +body: """
          That is why I never switched to Linux. I mean, it is over 30 years now and it still doesn’t do everything. Sure it does some cool stuff—but not “everything” I could do before. What is taking them so long?\n
          \n
          I mean, really great point.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@michaelmrose@lemmy.world"
        ]
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        -id: 140182
        -bodyTs: "'30':14 'cool':28 'could':34 'doesn':20 'everyth':23,32 'great':46 'linux':8 'long':42 'mean':10,44 'never':5 'point':47 'realli':45 'still':19 'stuff':29 'sure':24 'switch':6 'take':39 'year':15"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 17:24:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140182
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2300
        +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1592 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2334 …}
        +body: """
          I think GNOME is the only Wayland-first DE at the moment. KDE may go Wayland-only with Plasma 6 next year.\n
          \n
          Most other environments are still X for the moment though most of the major ones are starting to at least implement Wayland.\n
          \n
          There are Wayland only options like Hyperland, Sway, and Velox now too.
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@dan@upvote.au"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
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        -id: 140419
        -bodyTs: "'6':22 'de':10 'environ':27 'first':9 'gnome':3 'go':16 'hyperland':53 'implement':45 'kde':14 'least':44 'like':52 'major':38 'may':15 'moment':13,33 'next':23 'one':39 'option':51 'plasma':21 'start':41 'still':29 'sway':54 'think':2 'though':34 'velox':56 'wayland':8,18,46,49 'wayland-first':7 'wayland-on':17 'x':30 'year':24"
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          date: 2023-11-19 18:58:41.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 140419
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2073}
    ]
    -id: 13812
    -titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
    -bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    As I like to stay evidence driven, I should say that I use XFCE mostly and, as such, am not typically a Wayland user on most of my machines. I will let other readers decide how that impacts the indictment “Wayland’s worst enemy is its fans”.\n
    \n
    I am not sure what the “sides” are here either. If I was to try to draw that line, it seems to be between people providing software and those using it. Because the people writing the software are moving to Wayland.\n
    \n
    Which leads us to “at this rate”. GNOME and KDE will both be Wayland only next year. What percentage of the Linux Desktop population do we think that represents right there? Enlightenment has already moved. Ubuntu uses Wayland. Red Hat uses Wayland. The Steam Deck uses Wayland. XFCE and Cinnamon will move next year. Wayland only window managers are appearing and gaining in popularity. What percentage of the Linux Desktop universe are you expecting will still be using X at the end of 2025?\n
    \n
    Some people may wait 5 years. Then again, Ref Hat will have stopped contribute to X by then and, as I said, nobody is rushing in to dev X. How long is running X going to stay viable?\n
    \n
    I would say that BSD may take a little longer but they are starting to move too.\n
    \n
    Liking Wayland or not has nothing to do with any of these facts.
    """
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  +slug: "Firefox-Is-Going-To-Try-And-Ship-With-Wayland-Enabled"
  +title: "Firefox Is Going To Try And Ship With Wayland Enabled By Default"
  +url: "https://www.phoronix.com/news/Firefox-Change-Wayland-Release"
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        KDE currently marks Wayland support as experimental. They are expecting full readiness by Plasma 6 ( next quarter ).\n
        \n
        Firefox has had Wayland marked as experimental for some time. They are expecting full readiness by…hey, look at that—they say that it is ready now.\n
        \n
        So run Firefox on GNOME and enjoy the Wayland I guess.
        """
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}
 
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1705 …}
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        KDE currently marks Wayland support as experimental. They are expecting full readiness by Plasma 6 ( next quarter ).\n
        \n
        Firefox has had Wayland marked as experimental for some time. They are expecting full readiness by…hey, look at that—they say that it is ready now.\n
        \n
        So run Firefox on GNOME and enjoy the Wayland I guess.
        """
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
120 DENIED moderate 
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        KDE currently marks Wayland support as experimental. They are expecting full readiness by Plasma 6 ( next quarter ).\n
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        Firefox has had Wayland marked as experimental for some time. They are expecting full readiness by…hey, look at that—they say that it is ready now.\n
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
121 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
122 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
123 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692
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     …2
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    KDE currently marks Wayland support as experimental. They are expecting full readiness by Plasma 6 ( next quarter ).\n
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    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
124 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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    KDE currently marks Wayland support as experimental. They are expecting full readiness by Plasma 6 ( next quarter ).\n
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Show voter details
125 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
126 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1723
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
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  +body: "Since i see so much linux talk on lemmy i got curious and watched a video about the common distros. How true is the information in this video? The person hardly describes why debian and arch are just better than every other distro. At least i’m definitely now curious about Mint or something for gaming."
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        The basic GUI experience in X is provided by the window manager. It controls how your windows are placed ( eg. Tiling vs Stacking / Floating ), how they are decorated ( eg. Max / Min / Close buttons ), and how they behave ( eg. Click to focus ). In X, the window manager runs as an application on the X server. You can only use one at a time.\n
        \n
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        A Desktop Environment comes with a window manager ( or compositor ) and adds other tools that run alongside ( or on top of ) the window manager to provide a full user experience. This may include panels ( eg. think Windows start button, icon bar, and status tray ), docks ( like MacOS ), global menus, notification applets, and the desktop surface itself ( eg. are there icons or other features on the desktop ). A DE usually comes with a standard set of basic applications like a file manager, image viewer, document viewer, media player, and the like.\n
        \n
        If you start with a basic window manager then yes you have to add all this other stuff yourself. Of course you may not want some of it and so can have a much lighter experience. You can also just choose tools that you like. Of course, they may not match visually or work perfectly together.\n
        \n
        If you use a DE, the experience is curated for you and everything is more likely to work well out of the box. That said, nothing stops you from swapping out whatever components you want. You can even use a different window manager than the DE default.
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
127 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1723
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  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2750 …}
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  +slug: "What-do-you-think-about-this"
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  +body: "Since i see so much linux talk on lemmy i got curious and watched a video about the common distros. How true is the information in this video? The person hardly describes why debian and arch are just better than every other distro. At least i’m definitely now curious about Mint or something for gaming."
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725
      +user: App\Entity\User {#265 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1723 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1579 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1722 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1721 …}
      +body: """
        The basic GUI experience in X is provided by the window manager. It controls how your windows are placed ( eg. Tiling vs Stacking / Floating ), how they are decorated ( eg. Max / Min / Close buttons ), and how they behave ( eg. Click to focus ). In X, the window manager runs as an application on the X server. You can only use one at a time.\n
        \n
        In Wayland, the “window manager” is the display-server too and is called a compositor. For smaller projects, there are compositor libraries that provide similar capabilities to what the X server did so that these projects can concentrate on the “window manager” part. You can think of a Wayland compositor as equivalent to an X window manager ).\n
        \n
        A Desktop Environment comes with a window manager ( or compositor ) and adds other tools that run alongside ( or on top of ) the window manager to provide a full user experience. This may include panels ( eg. think Windows start button, icon bar, and status tray ), docks ( like MacOS ), global menus, notification applets, and the desktop surface itself ( eg. are there icons or other features on the desktop ). A DE usually comes with a standard set of basic applications like a file manager, image viewer, document viewer, media player, and the like.\n
        \n
        If you start with a basic window manager then yes you have to add all this other stuff yourself. Of course you may not want some of it and so can have a much lighter experience. You can also just choose tools that you like. Of course, they may not match visually or work perfectly together.\n
        \n
        If you use a DE, the experience is curated for you and everything is more likely to work well out of the box. That said, nothing stops you from swapping out whatever components you want. You can even use a different window manager than the DE default.
        """
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
128 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1723
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  +slug: "What-do-you-think-about-this"
  +title: "What do you think about this?"
  +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyADkmRVe0U&t=1484s"
  +body: "Since i see so much linux talk on lemmy i got curious and watched a video about the common distros. How true is the information in this video? The person hardly describes why debian and arch are just better than every other distro. At least i’m definitely now curious about Mint or something for gaming."
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      +body: """
        The basic GUI experience in X is provided by the window manager. It controls how your windows are placed ( eg. Tiling vs Stacking / Floating ), how they are decorated ( eg. Max / Min / Close buttons ), and how they behave ( eg. Click to focus ). In X, the window manager runs as an application on the X server. You can only use one at a time.\n
        \n
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        \n
        A Desktop Environment comes with a window manager ( or compositor ) and adds other tools that run alongside ( or on top of ) the window manager to provide a full user experience. This may include panels ( eg. think Windows start button, icon bar, and status tray ), docks ( like MacOS ), global menus, notification applets, and the desktop surface itself ( eg. are there icons or other features on the desktop ). A DE usually comes with a standard set of basic applications like a file manager, image viewer, document viewer, media player, and the like.\n
        \n
        If you start with a basic window manager then yes you have to add all this other stuff yourself. Of course you may not want some of it and so can have a much lighter experience. You can also just choose tools that you like. Of course, they may not match visually or work perfectly together.\n
        \n
        If you use a DE, the experience is curated for you and everything is more likely to work well out of the box. That said, nothing stops you from swapping out whatever components you want. You can even use a different window manager than the DE default.
        """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
129 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
130 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
131 DENIED edit 
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    The basic GUI experience in X is provided by the window manager. It controls how your windows are placed ( eg. Tiling vs Stacking / Floating ), how they are decorated ( eg. Max / Min / Close buttons ), and how they behave ( eg. Click to focus ). In X, the window manager runs as an application on the X server. You can only use one at a time.\n
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    \n
    If you use a DE, the experience is curated for you and everything is more likely to work well out of the box. That said, nothing stops you from swapping out whatever components you want. You can even use a different window manager than the DE default.
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
132 DENIED moderate 
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  +title: "Louvre: C++ library for building Wayland compositors."
  +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/712727df-59a9-4c0c-a7cf-e55bccdab252.png"
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    Hello, yesterday I officially released Louvre v1.0.0, a C++ library designed for building Wayland compositors with a primary focus on ease of development. It provides a default method for handling protocols, input events, and rendering, which you can selectively and progressively override as required, allowing you to see a functional compositor from day 1.\n
    \n
    It supports multi-GPU setups, multi-session (TTY switching), and offers various rendering options, including a scene and view system that automatically repaints only the damaged (changing) regions during a frame. Because it uses multiple threads, it can maintain a high FPS rate with v-sync enabled when rendering complex scenarios. In contrast, single-threaded compositors often experience a rapid drop in FPS, for example, from 60 to 30 fps, due to “dead times” while waiting for a screen vblank, leading to the skipping of frames.\n
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    You can find it here: [github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre](https://github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre)\n
    \n
    I hope it proves useful for you. If you decide to use it and encounter any doubts or wish to contribute to its development, please don’t hesitate to reach out.\n
    \n
    Greetings!
    """
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        I agree with your overall sentiment with the caveat that 20 years will be closer to 5. Early adopters are enjoying Wayland only benefits today. For example, the Steam Deck just launched with HDR and mainline support for Linux gamers in general will not be far behind.\n
        \n
        Also, the list of window managers being left behind is starting to look less appealing than the list of window managers that are Wayland only. Hyperland is probably already more popular than WindowMkaer. As GNOME and KDE go Wayland only, they will continue to add features that regular users will want. I see more announcements for new Wayland compositors than I do for new X window managers.\n
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        Another factor that gets missed is that the main dev support for X comes from Red Hat. RHEL9 is already Wayland based. When RHEL8 comes off support in 5 years, Red Hat will abandon X. How long will X stay viable after that?\n
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        As the number of X users dwindle, we will see toolkits drop support for X. GTK5 for example. 5 years may be too soon for that but I cannot see it taking 20 years.\n
        \n
        Wayland being “valuable to most users” will come faster than you think.
        """
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135 DENIED edit 
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    Hello, yesterday I officially released Louvre v1.0.0, a C++ library designed for building Wayland compositors with a primary focus on ease of development. It provides a default method for handling protocols, input events, and rendering, which you can selectively and progressively override as required, allowing you to see a functional compositor from day 1.\n
    \n
    It supports multi-GPU setups, multi-session (TTY switching), and offers various rendering options, including a scene and view system that automatically repaints only the damaged (changing) regions during a frame. Because it uses multiple threads, it can maintain a high FPS rate with v-sync enabled when rendering complex scenarios. In contrast, single-threaded compositors often experience a rapid drop in FPS, for example, from 60 to 30 fps, due to “dead times” while waiting for a screen vblank, leading to the skipping of frames.\n
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    The library is freely available, open source, thoroughly documented, includes examples, and features a detailed tutorial.\n
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    You can find it here: [github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre](https://github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre)\n
    \n
    I hope it proves useful for you. If you decide to use it and encounter any doubts or wish to contribute to its development, please don’t hesitate to reach out.\n
    \n
    Greetings!
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        I agree with your overall sentiment with the caveat that 20 years will be closer to 5. Early adopters are enjoying Wayland only benefits today. For example, the Steam Deck just launched with HDR and mainline support for Linux gamers in general will not be far behind.\n
        \n
        Also, the list of window managers being left behind is starting to look less appealing than the list of window managers that are Wayland only. Hyperland is probably already more popular than WindowMkaer. As GNOME and KDE go Wayland only, they will continue to add features that regular users will want. I see more announcements for new Wayland compositors than I do for new X window managers.\n
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        Another factor that gets missed is that the main dev support for X comes from Red Hat. RHEL9 is already Wayland based. When RHEL8 comes off support in 5 years, Red Hat will abandon X. How long will X stay viable after that?\n
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        As the number of X users dwindle, we will see toolkits drop support for X. GTK5 for example. 5 years may be too soon for that but I cannot see it taking 20 years.\n
        \n
        Wayland being “valuable to most users” will come faster than you think.
        """
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136 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2205
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    Hello, yesterday I officially released Louvre v1.0.0, a C++ library designed for building Wayland compositors with a primary focus on ease of development. It provides a default method for handling protocols, input events, and rendering, which you can selectively and progressively override as required, allowing you to see a functional compositor from day 1.\n
    \n
    It supports multi-GPU setups, multi-session (TTY switching), and offers various rendering options, including a scene and view system that automatically repaints only the damaged (changing) regions during a frame. Because it uses multiple threads, it can maintain a high FPS rate with v-sync enabled when rendering complex scenarios. In contrast, single-threaded compositors often experience a rapid drop in FPS, for example, from 60 to 30 fps, due to “dead times” while waiting for a screen vblank, leading to the skipping of frames.\n
    \n
    The library is freely available, open source, thoroughly documented, includes examples, and features a detailed tutorial.\n
    \n
    You can find it here: [github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre](https://github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre)\n
    \n
    I hope it proves useful for you. If you decide to use it and encounter any doubts or wish to contribute to its development, please don’t hesitate to reach out.\n
    \n
    Greetings!
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        I agree with your overall sentiment with the caveat that 20 years will be closer to 5. Early adopters are enjoying Wayland only benefits today. For example, the Steam Deck just launched with HDR and mainline support for Linux gamers in general will not be far behind.\n
        \n
        Also, the list of window managers being left behind is starting to look less appealing than the list of window managers that are Wayland only. Hyperland is probably already more popular than WindowMkaer. As GNOME and KDE go Wayland only, they will continue to add features that regular users will want. I see more announcements for new Wayland compositors than I do for new X window managers.\n
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        As the number of X users dwindle, we will see toolkits drop support for X. GTK5 for example. 5 years may be too soon for that but I cannot see it taking 20 years.\n
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        Wayland being “valuable to most users” will come faster than you think.
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      Hello, yesterday I officially released Louvre v1.0.0, a C++ library designed for building Wayland compositors with a primary focus on ease of development. It provides a default method for handling protocols, input events, and rendering, which you can selectively and progressively override as required, allowing you to see a functional compositor from day 1.\n
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      It supports multi-GPU setups, multi-session (TTY switching), and offers various rendering options, including a scene and view system that automatically repaints only the damaged (changing) regions during a frame. Because it uses multiple threads, it can maintain a high FPS rate with v-sync enabled when rendering complex scenarios. In contrast, single-threaded compositors often experience a rapid drop in FPS, for example, from 60 to 30 fps, due to “dead times” while waiting for a screen vblank, leading to the skipping of frames.\n
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      The library is freely available, open source, thoroughly documented, includes examples, and features a detailed tutorial.\n
      \n
      You can find it here: [github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre](https://github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre)\n
      \n
      I hope it proves useful for you. If you decide to use it and encounter any doubts or wish to contribute to its development, please don’t hesitate to reach out.\n
      \n
      Greetings!
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    I agree with your overall sentiment with the caveat that 20 years will be closer to 5. Early adopters are enjoying Wayland only benefits today. For example, the Steam Deck just launched with HDR and mainline support for Linux gamers in general will not be far behind.\n
    \n
    Also, the list of window managers being left behind is starting to look less appealing than the list of window managers that are Wayland only. Hyperland is probably already more popular than WindowMkaer. As GNOME and KDE go Wayland only, they will continue to add features that regular users will want. I see more announcements for new Wayland compositors than I do for new X window managers.\n
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    Another factor that gets missed is that the main dev support for X comes from Red Hat. RHEL9 is already Wayland based. When RHEL8 comes off support in 5 years, Red Hat will abandon X. How long will X stay viable after that?\n
    \n
    As the number of X users dwindle, we will see toolkits drop support for X. GTK5 for example. 5 years may be too soon for that but I cannot see it taking 20 years.\n
    \n
    Wayland being “valuable to most users” will come faster than you think.
    """
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      Hello, yesterday I officially released Louvre v1.0.0, a C++ library designed for building Wayland compositors with a primary focus on ease of development. It provides a default method for handling protocols, input events, and rendering, which you can selectively and progressively override as required, allowing you to see a functional compositor from day 1.\n
      \n
      It supports multi-GPU setups, multi-session (TTY switching), and offers various rendering options, including a scene and view system that automatically repaints only the damaged (changing) regions during a frame. Because it uses multiple threads, it can maintain a high FPS rate with v-sync enabled when rendering complex scenarios. In contrast, single-threaded compositors often experience a rapid drop in FPS, for example, from 60 to 30 fps, due to “dead times” while waiting for a screen vblank, leading to the skipping of frames.\n
      \n
      The library is freely available, open source, thoroughly documented, includes examples, and features a detailed tutorial.\n
      \n
      You can find it here: [github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre](https://github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre)\n
      \n
      I hope it proves useful for you. If you decide to use it and encounter any doubts or wish to contribute to its development, please don’t hesitate to reach out.\n
      \n
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    I agree with your overall sentiment with the caveat that 20 years will be closer to 5. Early adopters are enjoying Wayland only benefits today. For example, the Steam Deck just launched with HDR and mainline support for Linux gamers in general will not be far behind.\n
    \n
    Also, the list of window managers being left behind is starting to look less appealing than the list of window managers that are Wayland only. Hyperland is probably already more popular than WindowMkaer. As GNOME and KDE go Wayland only, they will continue to add features that regular users will want. I see more announcements for new Wayland compositors than I do for new X window managers.\n
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    \n
    Wayland being “valuable to most users” will come faster than you think.
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    +slug: "Louvre-C-library-for-building-Wayland-compositors"
    +title: "Louvre: C++ library for building Wayland compositors."
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/712727df-59a9-4c0c-a7cf-e55bccdab252.png"
    +body: """
      Hello, yesterday I officially released Louvre v1.0.0, a C++ library designed for building Wayland compositors with a primary focus on ease of development. It provides a default method for handling protocols, input events, and rendering, which you can selectively and progressively override as required, allowing you to see a functional compositor from day 1.\n
      \n
      It supports multi-GPU setups, multi-session (TTY switching), and offers various rendering options, including a scene and view system that automatically repaints only the damaged (changing) regions during a frame. Because it uses multiple threads, it can maintain a high FPS rate with v-sync enabled when rendering complex scenarios. In contrast, single-threaded compositors often experience a rapid drop in FPS, for example, from 60 to 30 fps, due to “dead times” while waiting for a screen vblank, leading to the skipping of frames.\n
      \n
      The library is freely available, open source, thoroughly documented, includes examples, and features a detailed tutorial.\n
      \n
      You can find it here: [github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre](https://github.com/CuarzoSoftware/Louvre)\n
      \n
      I hope it proves useful for you. If you decide to use it and encounter any doubts or wish to contribute to its development, please don’t hesitate to reach out.\n
      \n
      Greetings!
      """
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  +body: """
    I agree with your overall sentiment with the caveat that 20 years will be closer to 5. Early adopters are enjoying Wayland only benefits today. For example, the Steam Deck just launched with HDR and mainline support for Linux gamers in general will not be far behind.\n
    \n
    Also, the list of window managers being left behind is starting to look less appealing than the list of window managers that are Wayland only. Hyperland is probably already more popular than WindowMkaer. As GNOME and KDE go Wayland only, they will continue to add features that regular users will want. I see more announcements for new Wayland compositors than I do for new X window managers.\n
    \n
    Another factor that gets missed is that the main dev support for X comes from Red Hat. RHEL9 is already Wayland based. When RHEL8 comes off support in 5 years, Red Hat will abandon X. How long will X stay viable after that?\n
    \n
    As the number of X users dwindle, we will see toolkits drop support for X. GTK5 for example. 5 years may be too soon for that but I cannot see it taking 20 years.\n
    \n
    Wayland being “valuable to most users” will come faster than you think.
    """
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